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Replacing rim, ERD wiggle room?

Old 01-14-17, 06:14 PM
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Replacing rim, ERD wiggle room?

2008 Specialized Tricross... just noticed my front rim wear indicator is shot, the rear isn't looking much better, time to replace. Currently has Alex Ace 19 32h 700 rims, I believe it has an ERD of 598.6 according to an old BF post. What I'd like to know is how much wiggle room do I have in regards to ERD when selecting a new rim? I was checking out Alex DA22 32h 700 that appear to have an ERD of 593.9 according to FreeSpoke online. Would these work with my current spokes and hubs? Thanks
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Old 01-14-17, 06:27 PM
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If the spoke ends are about 2mm SHORT of the screw driver slot of the nipple, you should be good.
If the wheel was built properly, nope.
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Old 01-14-17, 06:40 PM
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So it sounds like ERD is pretty critical. Can I move to a rim that has a larger ERD? Do I only have like a mm either way? What can I safely get away with?
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Old 01-14-17, 06:46 PM
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Any good, affordable rim recommendations that would fit?
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Old 01-14-17, 06:50 PM
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It depends on 2 considerations.

1- are your spokes now on the short of long side, compared to the ideal of ending just shy of the top of the nipple? And will the rim change help or hurt based on that?

2- if the New ERD is smaller, how much overrun room do your nipples afford. Some allow 2mm or more, while others are closer to zero.

I usually figure I have close to 4mm (±2mm) in spoke length, but I use nipples that allow 2mm or overrun. If the nipples don't allow overrun, then I'm constrained between the top and 2mm shy of that, which is a pretty narrow target.
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Old 01-14-17, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by boneshaker78
So it sounds like ERD is pretty critical. Can I move to a rim that has a larger ERD? Do I only have like a mm either way? What can I safely get away with?
Don't ask us, ask your current wheel.

Read my prior post, above, to see what the rim is telling you and how to base your decision. For all you know, the new rim may actually be better in terms of spoke length than the old one.
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Old 01-14-17, 07:12 PM
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Cool bud.. I hear ya. Too lazy to rip my tire off and take a look at the moment, you're right about everything. I was looking for a general rule of thumb, but I see what you're saying.. it really depends on how your wheels were built in the first place. I apologize for my behavior.. I take BF for granted and just expect magical answers from the mass of bike enthusiasts on here. One of the frustrating parts about wheelbuilding, for me, is calculating the measurements to make things fit. It certainly doesn't help when you're playing with old parts they don't make anymore. All the best to you and thanks for the advice.
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Old 01-14-17, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by boneshaker78
Cool bud.. I hear ya. .... I was looking for a general rule of thumb, but I see what you're saying.. it really depends on how your wheels were built in the first place. I apologize for my behavior.....
No need to apologize. Though I don't use smiley faces, I don't take BF too seriously.

However, yours like so many other posts, ask for answers that can't be had, and are meanwhile right there on the bike if someone bothers to look.
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Old 01-14-17, 08:01 PM
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I see the DA 22 is a double wall rim.
That gives a bit more leeway vs a single wall, where you might have spoke ends poking the tube. (which could be ground flush)

IF the spokes are EVEN with the screw driver slot, you have almost 2.5 MM (call it 2.25 to be safe) additional that the nipple will screw on. That MIGHT be enough, but you wouldn't have much "wiggle room" when it came to truing.
If desperate, one could drill out a few threads on the barrel end of the nipple??
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Old 01-14-17, 08:10 PM
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Is there anything special about your spokes that you don't want to just buy 100% new spokes? In which case, the ERD is irrelevant.

If your spokes are too long, you can thread and cut them, but not necessarily the best job.

Another option I've used is to add nipple washers to effectively shorten the spokes (with a double-wall rim)
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Old 01-14-17, 08:27 PM
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Found Alex R450 which has ERD of 598 I believe (I would ask before buying), this would leave a discrepancy of .6. I took a look at the spokes and they end as soon as the threads of the nipple end or fall a tad short of that. I'm guessing that these would work.

I'm just trying to save money, I'm poor and don't want to have to buy spokes and nipples too. Going to inspect my hubs inside, clean and lubricate. If they are good I'm going to proceed with replacing the rims.
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Old 01-14-17, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by boneshaker78
Found Alex R450 which has ERD of 598 I believe (I would ask before buying), this would leave a discrepancy of .6. I took a look at the spokes and they end as soon as the threads of the nipple end or fall a tad short of that. I'm guessing that these would work.

I'm just trying to save money, I'm poor and don't want to have to buy spokes and nipples too. Going to inspect my hubs inside, clean and lubricate. If they are good I'm going to proceed with replacing the rims.
So, it sounds like your spokes are slightly short.
A slightly smaller ERD, and they'll stick out a bit more.

But, if your measurements are accurate, the difference will be 1/2 of 0.6mm or about 0.3 mm per spoke.

Someone probably rounded some of the numbers and not the others, so you're probably only accurate to the nearest mm anyway.
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Old 01-14-17, 08:43 PM
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Oh, if you have a single-walled rim, and the spokes stick out beyond the nipples, file them down.
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Old 01-14-17, 08:46 PM
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Only about a Cm or so on the end of the spoke is threaded , so dont get too far off , long
Too short and the Nipple will break off, the head won't be supported , and there it will fail



...

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Old 01-14-17, 08:59 PM
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Okay.. thanks
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Old 01-14-17, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by boneshaker78
Found Alex R450 which has ERD of 598 I believe (I would ask before buying), this would leave a discrepancy of .6. I took a look at the spokes and they end as soon as the threads of the nipple end or fall a tad short of that. I'm guessing that these would work.

I'm just trying to save money, I'm poor and don't want to have to buy spokes and nipples too. Going to inspect my hubs inside, clean and lubricate. If they are good I'm going to proceed with replacing the rims.
Buy NEW nipples. That way you've eliminated 1/2 of the binding threads problem with corroded nipples. Chances are you may round off some nipples anyway when removing.
Wire brush the threads on the spokes. The better you do it, the easier they'll screw back on.

Sort your old spokes when removing. DS may be longer. If you want to take that a step more, you can sort by leading/trailing.

I'll assume you are not an experienced wheel builder due to the nature of the question.
Consistently, smooth turning nipples gives the "feedback" you need to help tighten things evenly.
Used spokes & nipples makes the learning experience MUCH more difficult than new parts.
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Old 01-14-17, 09:58 PM
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Actually been building wheels for quite some time and build them better than most... I just don't do it all that often. I usually calculate spoke length and buy them to fit the rim and hub. It's a little different for me when trying to fit a rim to the spokes.

I normally wire brush spokes and thread them back in using linseed oil. I rarely if ever round out nipples. Even tension to rim spec, tensiometer, spoke wind up released, stress relieved, radial and lateral true, centered. I got it down.

It might be wise to buy new nipples though, I may consider doing so. Thanks
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Old 01-16-17, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
Buy NEW nipples. ......
++++ Definitely; ALWAYS scrap the old nipples.
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Old 01-17-17, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by boneshaker78
Found Alex R450 which has ERD of 598 I believe (I would ask before buying), this would leave a discrepancy of .6. I took a look at the spokes and they end as soon as the threads of the nipple end or fall a tad short of that. I'm guessing that these would work.

I'm just trying to save money, I'm poor and don't want to have to buy spokes and nipples too. Going to inspect my hubs inside, clean and lubricate. If they are good I'm going to proceed with replacing the rims.
It depends on your nipple. Look up DT Squorx and Sapim Double Square. These designs allow the spoke to be threaded in on the nipple all the way without the inconvenience of interfering with your screwdriver. Not that you want to do this all the way (if the threads bottom out, you risk a split nipple), but they allow it. A Sapim double square will go nine turns over length, which is 4.5mm, a difference of 9mm ERD. Quite a lot of "wiggle room". Also these designs are super fast because your tool engages almost effortlessly.

Disadvantage: the distance between the double walls of the rim needs to be enough to clear them.

So, say your spoke calculator gives 262 and 264mm for the front wheel, 263mm NDS and 262mm DS. Allowing 1mm for spoke stretch, I'll just order one length - 263mm for the whole wheel. Simple. My DS will be 2mm "too long" but still 2.5mm away from bottoming out.

Sorry for the long post, but you have other options. You could find a local bike shop that has a spoke rolling machine. They can cut your spokes shorter for a small fee. I do this all the time because I'm cheap like you.

You can use nipple washers to cheat an extra 1.5mm ERD into the rim.

Or buy new Sapim Race at Danscomp for 50 cents each. I think Sapim Leader are like 30 cents each. I spoked a set of 32 hole mountain wheels for under $30 last week, brass nipples included.
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Old 01-17-17, 07:04 AM
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Specialized tricross? I'm building a wheel with the wtb dx23. It's currently $20 shipped on the bay of the e. 17mm internal width. With new Sapim Race spokes, it would be $75 all together. Within your budget?
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