LACING - Outbound on Drive Side?
 

Greetings to all!

I have A- skills at truing, built a couple or so new wheels, and have rebuilt wheels successfully. Needing to build a new set now. I have been doing LOTS of reading lately to make sure I'm up on things. I'm generally very well informed at this point (don't need rudimentary info).

Regarding Rear Wheel - Non-disc Lacing:

Biggest question is whether to buck current conventional wisdom, and lace the drive side with the 'pulling spokes' on outbound side, instead of conventional inbound pulling spokes on both sides. I can gain about 3mm of additional rightward drive-side offset this way. It seems this would be of significant benefit at evening out tension on the two sides of the wheel, and make a more stable hub-to-rim spoke triangle. If I do this, non-drive side pulling spokes would be inbound - again to create a more balanced offset

The reasoning often cited for NOT doing the above seems to be that the drive side pulling spokes would move spokes closer to the derailleur under torque, causing them to hit the cage. Yet even allowing for what seems an unlikely 2 mmm of rightward movement (about the width of the crossing spoke), I still would have about 5mm space between the spokes and the derailleur in low gear.

Given that, is there any good reason why I SHOULDN'T lace the drive side pulling spokes outbound, and should stick with conventional wisdom of all pulling spokes laced inbound? The only other thing I've heard (and am skeptical of), is that under torque, it may cause the wheel to move to the left side a bit, as the drive-side pulling spokes try to straighten more than the left side ones.

Thank you!
Jeff

The on-site search function stinks, but if you use google, you will find this has been discussed on this forum already.

"The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt... great book... get it... read it... build away. I found a clean copy for 49 cents in a local book store (on sale!).

radiating back, CCW... if chain overshifts, past biggest cog, without a 'dork disc'. while climbing, it will jam in even harder and spokes will die.

I did Google searches on the topic, which is how I ended up here. Nothing came up for me on other threads here, so if you can suggest search entry words, or point me to some threads, that would help.

I'm aware of Brandt's book, read sections and excerpts of it, but trying to save costs now or I might as well have someone built it! Don't really have time to hunt for a copy now. If you or someone else can condense the essence of what he says that addresses my question (please, NOT that the spokes would hit the derailleur, as it will not and seems to be a bogus argument in this case), that would be appreciated.

fietsbob's got it. The word from my mechanic and the guy he hung with was "inside pulling". (The spokes coming out of the inner side of the flange at the top of the hub point back. These are the spokes that are loaded when you pedal or brake.) You did this so that when the chain lands between the last cog and the spokes, the spokes will do their best to kick the chain out. If you go outside pulling, that spokes will do their best to suck the chain in causing considerably more damage.

I always make a note of the damage from a jammed chain and whether the spokes were inside or outside pulling. There is considerable overlap between the two, but the pattern of worse damage from inside pulling is impressively consistent. (I've been taking notes for 40 years.)

Oh, that guy who used to hang with my mechanic? Sheldon Brown. (This I find actually funny. That rule was solidly planted in my brain for 25 years before I had any idea he became famous.)

Edited for clarity and typos.

Ben

Good point - If you go off the left cog, the spokes would lead the chain deeper toward the hub, rather than away from it.

I keep my derailleurs well-adjusted. Never thrown a chain to the inside since riding my Schwinn Orange Krate in the late 60s :) I suppose it's possible though, as I've sure thrown the chain off the front rings a good number of times.

Not opposed to an ounce of 'Dork Disc' for safety, if it might matter. But I think I would rather have the more stable, balanced offset and sacrifice myself to the Dork Gods. I'm not hanging around racing types worried about appearances and egos. Saw a real cool light-weight Dork Disc on a high-end Kona recently.

Make sure tu set the RD limit screws properly. Regardless of the lacing pattern.

Jobst Brandt and Roger Musson both lace pulling spokes outbound, but both admit it doesn't matter from which side you lace them, as long as you do it properly.

Sheldon Brown recommends inbound drive spokes - in case the chain drops between the sprocket(s) and the spokes.

I'd do it like Brandt and Musson do, just for the benefit of a few more offset mm. But I've built wheels the Sheldon way and they too were strong and lasting long.

So my advice would be: lace it whichever way makes you sleep better at night, for whatever reasons you believe it is so. Just make sure you do it all right (tensioning, stress relieving etc.).

That's interesting that Brandt suggests outbound pulling (I don't know of Musson).

Overall, if one is willing to go with the Dork Disc (and the more threads I read on it make me think it's worth it alone on the chance of that one freak occurrence), the added offset of drive-side pulling spokes outbound seems to build the stronger wheel, with no real drawbacks.

If I do that, what are the thoughts on the non-drive side? Better to have the pulling spokes inbound, to make the offsets more symmetrical and therefore more even-tensioned (I'm inclined to go this route)? Or to run the non-drive side pulling spokes outbound as well? What do Brandt and Musson have to say on that?

Thanks!
Jeff

:) Ben. You know what else is funny? Just this week I spotted on one of Sheldon's pages a mention of thanks to a fellow named Calvert Guthrie, for sending him copies of an old Mead bike catalog. Quite a surprise, as Calvert has been a friend of mine on Facebook for about a half a year. We connected through artisanship and politics - nothing to do with cycling. What a coincidence!

Again, no offence meant, do whatever makes you sleep better at night. I doubt it will make a measurable difference, even using a tension-meter (may the ones who've tested it correct me if I'm wrong). As long as a wheel is built well, with proper tension of all the spokes (i.e. even tension of all the spokes on one side), the NDS spokes would never be too loose to start unwinding and create problems. So it boils down to what you think would be better and what makes you feel "safer".

P.S. This is my personal oppinion from the books I've read and experience so far:
Using good quality double butted steel spokes, with brass nipples, not making a super low spoke count wheels, and making sure the tension is even at each side (and big enough, but not to overdo it) are the most important things. Making sure spokes are not wound up and are stress relieved is also very, very important.
The rest is more for an academic debate (i.e. pissing contest) than relevant in practice.

I do the pulling spokes heads out. I've read a number of explanations on the topic and, frankly, they just leave me confused. I do remember reading a magazine article decades ago that said it didn't matter very much. I do the pulling spokes heads out because that's the way I've always done it and it would be hard for me to change.

FWIW, I also install the pulling spokes on both sides of the hub before lacing the crossing spokes. It makes it much easier because I can stick the (heads in) crossing spokes through from the other side.

CCW = Counter ClockWise. (Anti clockwise to the British...)