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Di2 adjustment issue

Old 03-27-17, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott
Code:
]img]https://somewhere.over.the.rainbow/mypicture.jpg]/img]
where I have reversed the opening brackets so that you can see them. (bbcode markup language)


I'm pretty sure an 11-speed cassette won't even fit on a 10 speed hub. I know I have 11-speed hubs and have a similar problem. The problem is variation in the frame dropout/derailleur hanger spatial position relative to the hub/cassette.
Sorry, I meant how can I paste a pic I have on my phone without having a URL?

I was afraid you'd say that about frame / hanger / cassette variations.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ff9700
Sorry, I meant how can I paste a pic I have on my phone without having a URL?

I was afraid you'd say that about frame / hanger / cassette variations.
When editing your post, click the paperclip icon--you can browse files on your PC (never tried it with a phone) and upload them--those photos will be at the bottom of the post. You may need to click Advanced to show it. You may need to resize a large photo first, but they might resize automatically.

Google Photos aren't easy to post on BF.
Other online photos can be right clicked, "save photo location", then use the yellow "insert image" icon when you edit the post.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rm -rf
My bike, showing the derailleur alignment in the big ring-small cog. Is your spacing similar?

I measured 2.5mm from the black derailleur hanger to the outside of the lockring, and 4.2mm from the derailleur hanger to the side of the 11 tooth cog. And the steel colored B screw fitting is just about the width of the derailleur hanger.

A 4mm hex wrench (on it's flats, of course) fits between the hanger and the side of the 11 cog, with a very slight gap. The inside of the hanger has a slight offset outboard of the frame dropout, 1mm at the most.

I cannot fit a 4mm hex wrench between hanger and the 11 cog. It seems at least 2mm shy. Maybe as suggested there is enough variation betw frame, hanger and cassette to cause the issue.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ff9700
Sorry, I meant how can I paste a pic I have on my phone without having a URL?

I was afraid you'd say that about frame / hanger / cassette variations.
I could very well be wrong. I've never gotten a straight clear answer out of anyone (including my frame-builder). I thought maybe it was because mine is a steel-framed bike, and most people put these things on carbon bikes. But it just might be natural variation within the species.

In any case, I am still hoping there is some way to re-zero it.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rm -rf
When editing your post, click the paperclip icon--you can browse files on your PC (never tried it with a phone) and upload them--those photos will be at the bottom of the post. You may need to click Advanced to show it. You may need to resize a large photo first, but they might resize automatically.

Google Photos aren't easy to post on BF.
Other online photos can be right clicked, "save photo location", then use the yellow "insert image" icon when you edit the post.
Great thank you. I think I got it. It appears to work from the phone (I'll find out when I submit post), although have to switch from mobile site to full site.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:50 PM
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Apologies if this is all old news, but in case someone browsing this thread for more info needs these links (in addition to the Shimano manual posted above):

Art's Cycle: How to Adjust Shimano Di2 Rear Derailleurs

Park Tool's instructions
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Old 03-27-17, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott
Code:
]img]https://somewhere.over.the.rainbow/mypicture.jpg]/img]
where I have reversed the opening brackets so that you can see them. (bbcode markup language)


I'm pretty sure an 11-speed cassette won't even fit on a 10 speed hub. I know I have 11-speed hubs and have a similar problem. The problem is variation in the frame dropout/derailleur hanger spatial position relative to the hub/cassette.
That's what I'm thinking. In any case, if there is room between the lock ring and the frame,
and, the lock ring will still tighten properly, a thin spacer behind the cassette should move the cassette into a position to work.
I'm also wondering if the derailleur hanger could be on a non flat surface and unable to move in far enough against the frame. A burr or even a piece of dirt might keep it from tightening correctly. Maybe a different hanger if possible.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ff9700
Great thank you. I think I got it. It appears to work from the phone (I'll find out when I submit post), although have to switch from mobile site to full site.
So, just to clarify, is the offset shown in the photo present even after you do the limit screw adjustment?

Also, is the cassette lock ring tightened down all the way with the required torque? If it is sticking out, it could cause a mis-fit.

(Yours is much worse than mine, by the way.)

Last edited by Cyclist0108; 03-27-17 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:57 PM
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The photo was posted while I was typing. Looks like the cassette is pretty close to the frame.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott
So, just to clarify, is the offset shown in the photo present even after you do the limit screw adjustment?
Yes, the photo was taken after the derailleur trim was centered to zero in the range, and the low limit screw backed all the way out.
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Old 03-27-17, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 2manybikes
That's what I'm thinking. In any case, if there is room between the lock ring and the frame,
and, the lock ring will still tighten properly, a thin spacer behind the cassette should move the cassette into a position to work.
I'm also wondering if the derailleur hanger could be on a non flat surface and unable to move in far enough against the frame. A burr or even a piece of dirt might keep it from tightening correctly. Maybe a different hanger if possible.
I will inspect the hanger attachment in the morning and if all else fails probably worth it to replace it for a few bucks.
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Old 03-27-17, 07:02 PM
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You fine folks are generous with your time and very helpful. Many thanks.

I will report back.
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Old 03-28-17, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 2manybikes
That's what I'm thinking. In any case, if there is room between the lock ring and the frame,
and, the lock ring will still tighten properly, a thin spacer behind the cassette should move the cassette into a position to work.
I'm also wondering if the derailleur hanger could be on a non flat surface and unable to move in far enough against the frame. A burr or even a piece of dirt might keep it from tightening correctly. Maybe a different hanger if possible.
I don't think a thin spacer would move the cassette outward far enough. The lockring only threads on a few turns, so a thicker spacer wouldn't work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Derailleur offset measurement:
I measured the inside of the steel colored "B" screw plate to the flat side of the small cog--the red line on the photo (ignore the chain in the way).

It's 12mm on my bike. This is a critical distance--if it was a lot bigger, the derailleur would be that much farther inboard. I also measured the cog spacing, 4mm center to center.

The Di2 adjustment range covers a full cog spacing--if I adjustment click through the full 33 clicks while turning the crank, it shifts to the next cog.

So, if your plate to cog distance is around 9-10mm or less, it might not be able to adjust inward far enough.

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Old 03-29-17, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rm -rf
I don't think a thin spacer would move the cassette outward far enough. The lockring only threads on a few turns, so a thicker spacer wouldn't work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Derailleur offset measurement:
I measured the inside of the steel colored "B" screw plate to the flat side of the small cog--the red line on the photo (ignore the chain in the way).

It's 12mm on my bike. This is a critical distance--if it was a lot bigger, the derailleur would be that much farther inboard. I also measured the cog spacing, 4mm center to center.

The Di2 adjustment range covers a full cog spacing--if I adjustment click through the full 33 clicks while turning the crank, it shifts to the next cog.

So, if your plate to cog distance is around 9-10mm or less, it might not be able to adjust inward far enough.

Measuring like for like, my distance is 15mm. Which would explain why max trim adjustment of 16 clicks inboard is needed (about 3mm of travel).

I've ordered a new hanger to see if any defect or variation is causing the issue.

Otherwise it appears I have two options: 1) put some washers or spacers between the inside of the hanger and the frame or 2) shave down the outside surface of the hanger where the rear d mounts.

Either option would move the derailleur farther inboard. On option 1 it will be tricky to find a suitable spacer because of the shape and fitment of the hanger on the frame. On option 2, has anyone done this with any success and could recommend it?
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Old 03-29-17, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ff9700
Measuring like for like, my distance is 15mm. Which would explain why max trim adjustment of 16 clicks inboard is needed (about 3mm of travel).

I've ordered a new hanger to see if any defect or variation is causing the issue.

Otherwise it appears I have two options: 1) put some washers or spacers between the inside of the hanger and the frame or 2) shave down the outside surface of the hanger where the rear d mounts.

Either option would move the derailleur farther inboard. On option 1 it will be tricky to find a suitable spacer because of the shape and fitment of the hanger on the frame. On option 2, has anyone done this with any success and could recommend it?
Hmm, neither sounds like an easy fix.

Spacers:
The dropout needs good support where it bolts to the frame.
Perhaps some 1mm or 2mm thick aluminum sheet, cut to match the dropout outline, and drilled? Washers don't sound good to me.
NOTE--my dropout bolts from the outside of the frame, so spacers would make it worse, moving the dropout farther outboard.

Shave down the dropout:

Since the derailleur bolts to the outside of the dropout, the outside of the dropout would have to be cut down parallel, by a machinist. Just sanding or filing wouldn't be accurate enough. Cut down the outside of the lower half where the derailleur mounts. Or, if your dropout bolts to the frame from the outside like mine does, cut the inside top part of the dropout.

Any thinning would make this weaker, and a broken dropout would send the derailleur into the spokes, with a mangled derailleur and likely doing frame damage.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Have you contacted the bike manufacturer about this?
They should know if there are any fixes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One more thing to check:
Here's my wheel. You can see the smallest cog, then the gray lockring, then the silver part of the hub surface that butts up to the frame dropout (with the red tag), and finally the black axle.

If your wheel extends farther from the lockring, the red tag distance, that would also make the cogs go too far inboard from the derailleur.

(This is my experimental 14-32 combo cassette, that's why the smaller cogs look extra wide. Yes, it's 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 25 28 32 ! )
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Last edited by rm -rf; 03-29-17 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 03-29-17, 01:20 PM
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When you reinstalled the Di2 RD did you also try wounding out the b-screw fully first ? Did you make sure the little b-screw tab is touching the hanger tab with no gap when screwing the RD tight ?

Where does the upper jockey wheel rest when in the highest gear 11t cog ? Is it inline or off centre ?

Is the derailleur hanger tight on the frame ?

Is the low limit screw definitely all the way out ? Is there a clear gap between the end of the low limit screw and RD stop when clicked into the lowest gear ? If the low limit screw is in too much even a very tiny bit there is a safety feature that will automatically kick in and it will auto shift the to the next cog.

Last edited by trailflow1; 03-29-17 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 04-14-17, 02:33 PM
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I'm back. I purchased another hanger and had it shaved down 3mm. I've installed it and shifting is now perfect, and the adjustment setting is in the middle of the range of 33 clicks.

Note the difference between the original and the shaved version. The thinning of the hanger is where the derailleur mounts but the part that mounts tot he frame was left untouched (still measures 4mm thick). I think this should keep the integrity.
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Old 04-14-17, 02:49 PM
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Congratulations.

I am however hoping there is an easier way...
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Old 04-14-17, 02:55 PM
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Now all you have to do is send the bill to the bike shop. Why should you have to correct a design fault of the hanger out of your own pocket ?

Have you had any correspondence with Merckx bikes about the problem ? Are they aware of it ?

Are there any other examples of this bike model with Di2 having the same issue ?
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Old 04-14-17, 06:08 PM
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Merckx supplied the hanger. I shouldn't have said I purchased it. The machine shop was kind enough to mill down the hanger at no charge so it only cost me a complimentary 6 pack.

We've measured multiple versions of my model and they're all within 1mm of each other.

I'm chalking this up to tight tolerances and slight manufacturing variances. (Not sure if the combination of 11 speed and 142mm rear spacing is part of the answer). I'm sure many people wouldn't be so fussy, since after some fiddling the bike did shift fine. But I wouldn't be satisfied until the derailleur was brought in from max adjustment to get the fine shifting.

In the end no real harm so no foul. I'll save my bullets.
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Old 04-14-17, 06:30 PM
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You have a great temperament! Good on you.
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Old 04-14-17, 07:35 PM
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Wow, that worked great! Thanks for posting the followup.
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Old 10-26-17, 08:07 AM
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Mourenx Disc Question

This is not related to your issue, but I am about to buy a Mourenx 69 frame and have a question you might be able to help with as I am getting conflicting information from 2 different retailers.

Can you advise the hub/through axle size for this frame? I believe the front should be 100 x 12, but I'm told the rear is either 130 x 12 mm or 135 x 10 mm. I need to know which is correct so I can make sure I get compatible wheels.

Thanks for your help!


Originally Posted by ff9700
many thanks. Sorry I omitted the basics!

This is a new Merckx Mourenx 69 Disc. Roughly 500 miles on the bike. I felt it was chain was noisier than it should be and upon trying to resolve by adjusting, I noticed the derailleur is max adjusted to the inboard side.

I've tried reset mode countless times and assumed that would reset the trim point to center. It's almost as if the derailleur is off a full cog to the outboard side.
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Old 10-30-17, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by stephenpercy
This is not related to your issue, but I am about to buy a Mourenx 69 frame and have a question you might be able to help with as I am getting conflicting information from 2 different retailers.

Can you advise the hub/through axle size for this frame? I believe the front should be 100 x 12, but I'm told the rear is either 130 x 12 mm or 135 x 10 mm. I need to know which is correct so I can make sure I get compatible wheels.

Thanks for your help!
Just call Eddy Merckx and ask, I Googled it and clicked through on the manufacturer's website until I got a phone number (and email address). Easy!
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Old 11-06-17, 02:52 PM
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I did email Eddy Merckx using the address from their web site. They replied promptly with the information I needed. Just as well that I checked, both bike shops I had dealt with had given me incorrect info, just as well I hadn't ordered wheels based on what they told me.
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