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Di2 adjustment issue

Old 03-26-17, 01:33 PM
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Di2 adjustment issue

Dear friends, I have di2 11 speed. The drivetrain is noisy and has trouble shifting inboard (slow and sometimes won't shift to larger cogs). This happens mostly in the large chainring, not the small. While in big chainring, it will not shift into largest cog (although the low limit seems fine as it will reach largest cog with some manual pressure).

In trim adjustment mode, the rear derailleur is all the way inboard: of the 33 steps, it is maxed out up the cogset. It seems I need to trim farther inboard but I am fully adjusted in that direction already.

The hanger has been verified straight with the alignment tool by me and my local bike shop. The cogset has been checked for tightness as have the limit screws. I've tried the reset mode holding 3-5 seconds but it won't reach largest sprocket. All firmware has been updated in e-tube.

I'm riding the stock 11sp wheelset so I can't imagine spacers are an issue.

Could this be a faulty rear derailleur or battery? Any other things I could try? Happy to provide any more info. Many thanks all.
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Old 03-26-17, 02:27 PM
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Simple question: How old is the bike, and how long has this been going on? Sorry, two questions, but equally important. Good answers need full information
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Old 03-26-17, 02:37 PM
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many thanks. Sorry I omitted the basics!

This is a new Merckx Mourenx 69 Disc. Roughly 500 miles on the bike. I felt it was chain was noisier than it should be and upon trying to resolve by adjusting, I noticed the derailleur is max adjusted to the inboard side.

I've tried reset mode countless times and assumed that would reset the trim point to center. It's almost as if the derailleur is off a full cog to the outboard side.
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Old 03-26-17, 02:48 PM
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"Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work properly yet."

and

"Most of the time spent wrestling with technologies that don't quite work yet is just not worth it for end users, however much fun it is for nerds."

and

"We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works." -- Douglas Adams
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Old 03-26-17, 03:04 PM
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I thought the 5 second button press was to reset from "crash protection mode". It's not obvious if it actually recenters the 33 click adjustment range, the manual doesn't say.

It doesn't recenter!

I tried an experiment:
I mis-adjusted the rear so the chain was noisy, rubbing on the next largest cog. Then turned off adjustment mode.
Then, while turning the crank (required!) I held the button until it blinked, for "protection mode" reset. it slowly shifts through all the cogs, stopping at the largest one.
After this, it's still out of adjustment, rubbing and noisy.
To get back to the correct adjustment: I clicked 33+ times toward the smallest cog, then 16 clicks in the other direction, the center of the range. Then one more click was all I needed.



Get the pdf Dealer Manual for Ultegra Di2, DM-UL0001-03 at si.shimano.com. It's easy to follow.

My manual, version 02, has the rear derailleur adjustment starting at page 53.

You should start from scratch, after clicking the adjustments all the way in one direction, more than 33 clicks. Then back to the middle, 16 clicks. Follow the manual's method.

I just tested this: continued clicking past the 33 steps still gets a motor noise, but the derailleur doesn't move any farther. Mine is set within a couple of clicks of the center. When I click all the way inward, while turning the crank on the stand, it jumps to the next larger cog. Then cranking and clicking all 33 steps toward the small cogs shifts it down one cog. So adjustment mode seems to have plenty of range.

Also, note, in the manual: The high and low limit screws need to be set correctly, in particular, the high limit (smallest cog) needs a gap to allow the temporary overshift.

~~~~To check my adjustment:
I shift up and down a couple of cogs, stopping near the middle cog. I look for a very small gap between the chain and the next largest cog, maybe 1mm.

Last edited by rm -rf; 05-17-17 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 03-26-17, 03:30 PM
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thank you for the find on crash protection mode not re-centering the trim point.
1. I've started from scratch, removing the chain and reinstalling the derailler.
2. I reset both limit screws. I paid special attention to the high limit so that it has room for the overshift.
3. I have the low limit all the way out, to eliminate any restriction just while debugging this issue.
4. I also MANUALLY centered the trim point so I have 16 steps on either side.

I shifted to the largest cog (no chain installed yet). When viewed from behind, the jockey wheel looks 3-5 millimeters too far outboard. I have a pic but don't know how to upload. Is there a way to paste from photo library without needing a URL?
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Old 03-26-17, 03:50 PM
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figured out the URL thing but I can't post it until I have 10 posts.

In meantime, you will see the derailleur won't reach the largest cog despite low limit being set all the way out and the high limit set properly. Again, this is with the trim point set in the center of the range. Also, there is play in the derailleur if I manually push inboard but it won't reach by shifting alone. Could something be keeping it from moving to farthest fear inboard other than the limit screw? (this was all easier with cabled systems)
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Old 03-27-17, 07:12 AM
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Just add 6 tiny posts in here, then you can post the photos.

A mystery.

Since it won't quite reach the largest cog, does it also go past the smallest cog?
It doesn't seem likely that the derailleur is offset too far out on the frame. I would think that all bikes are standardized.

Are the middle cogs centered, or are they all offset?

Is this a factory Di2 install?
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Old 03-27-17, 08:15 AM
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Sounds like a spacer for the cassette is missing.
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Old 03-27-17, 09:08 AM
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My bike, showing the derailleur alignment in the big ring-small cog. Is your spacing similar?

I measured 2.5mm from the black derailleur hanger to the outside of the lockring, and 4.2mm from the derailleur hanger to the side of the 11 tooth cog. And the steel colored B screw fitting is just about the width of the derailleur hanger.

A 4mm hex wrench (on it's flats, of course) fits between the hanger and the side of the 11 cog, with a very slight gap. The inside of the hanger has a slight offset outboard of the frame dropout, 1mm at the most.


Last edited by rm -rf; 03-27-17 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 03-27-17, 11:20 AM
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Does it shift to the other cogs well? Or does it only shift to the smaller half of the cassette well? Does the adjustment seem to change as you go up?
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Old 03-27-17, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rm -rf
Just add 6 tiny posts in here, then you can post the photos.

A mystery.

Since it won't quite reach the largest cog, does it also go past the smallest cog?
It doesn't seem likely that the derailleur is offset too far out on the frame. I would think that all bikes are standardized.

Are the middle cogs centered, or are they all offset?

Is this a factory Di2 install?
Yes factory di2 install. There does seem to be room outboard of the small cog.

Will reply to various questions to get my post count up
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Old 03-27-17, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
Sounds like a spacer for the cassette is missing.
that's what it behaves like, and in fact would be the simplest explanation. But this is a factory install of 11 sp di2 with 11 sp hub so not sure why a spacer would be needed?
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Old 03-27-17, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rm -rf
My bike, showing the derailleur alignment in the big ring-small cog. Is your spacing similar?

I measured 2.5mm from the black derailleur hanger to the outside of the lockring, and 4.2mm from the derailleur hanger to the side of the 11 tooth cog. And the steel colored B screw fitting is just about the width of the derailleur hanger.

A 4mm hex wrench (on it's flats, of course) fits between the hanger and the side of the 11 cog, with a very slight gap. The inside of the hanger has a slight offset outboard of the frame dropout, 1mm at the most.
I will check my spacing.
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Old 03-27-17, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by corrado33
Does it shift to the other cogs well? Or does it only shift to the smaller half of the cassette well? Does the adjustment seem to change as you go up?
it shifts outboard just fine to all cogs. It struggles, sometimes, shifting inboard to bigger cogs. And the large/large shift is spotty at best.
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Old 03-27-17, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ff9700
it shifts outboard just fine to all cogs. It struggles, sometimes, shifting inboard to bigger cogs. And the large/large shift is spotty at best.
after a firmware update is etube, my lbs said they performed some trim adjustment via stubs that is more precise or not available to perform via the shifters.

These two things allowed them to trim enough to produce acceptable shifting.

However, the jockey is again maxed out to the inboard side of trim range. There are no more clicks available inboard but 33 clicks available to the outboard side. Does this sound like a correct end state to have acceptable shifting? I'll post pic next.
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Old 03-27-17, 05:10 PM
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getting post count up to post URL image
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Old 03-27-17, 05:10 PM
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as a reminder from earlier post, this pic shows:

1. I've started from scratch, removing the chain and reinstalled the derailler.
2. I reset both limit screws. I paid special attention to the high limit so that it has room for the overshift.
3. I have the low limit all the way out, to eliminate any restriction just while debugging this issue.
4. I also MANUALLY centered the trim point so I have 16 steps on either side.
5. Hanger has been straightened multiple times.

You can see the jockey is ~3mm is too far inboard.

AFTER THE FIRMWARE UPDATE AND FURTHER TRIM ADJUSTMENT VIA E-TUBE INSTEAD OF SHIFTERS, IT BASICALLY SHIFTS FINE. BUT THERE IS STILL NO ROOM LEFT TO TRIM ADJUSTMENT FURTHER INBOARD BUT 33 STEPS AVAILABLE TO TRIM IN OUTBOARD DIRECTION. IS THIS OK?

https://photos.google.com/search/_tr...R6CkHY6c-mXZZE
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Old 03-27-17, 05:32 PM
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Ideally, it should be centered so you get 16 adjustment quanta in each direction.

Yes, it something to worry about.

Were you able to do this? (Sorry, just asking for clarification.)

Originally Posted by rm -rf
My manual, version 02, has the rear derailleur adjustment starting at page 53.

You should start from scratch, after clicking the adjustments all the way in one direction, more than 33 clicks. Then back to the middle, 16 clicks. Follow the manual's method.

I just tested this: continued clicking past the 33 steps still gets a motor noise, but the derailleur doesn't move any farther. Mine is set within a couple of clicks of the center. When I click all the way inward, while turning the crank on the stand, it jumps to the next larger cog. Then cranking and clicking all 33 steps toward the small cogs shifts it down one cog. So adjustment mode seems to have plenty of range.

Also, note, in the manual: The high and low limit screws need to be set correctly, in particular, the high limit (smallest cog) needs a gap to allow the temporary overshift.

~~~~To check my adjustment:
I shift up and down a couple of cogs, stopping near the middle cog. I look for a very small gap between the chain and the next largest cog, maybe 1mm.
I have a similar problem. On one wheelset, I only have four adjustment increments, and on a second wheelset (with a different hub), none. It bugs me. Moreover, on that second wheelset, my lowest cassette cog wore out prematurely, which tells me this is a problem that I need to solve.

What I would like to be able to do is to center the thing manually and push a reset button so I have 16 remaining adjustments in either direction.
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Old 03-27-17, 05:33 PM
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Your image link doesn't work.
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Old 03-27-17, 05:38 PM
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I did the reinstall from scratch and still couldn't get the derailleur to center. I agree, would be a great feature to reset the center point.

I also feel compelled to resolve this despite being able to shift fine. It doesn't feel right to have something so far out of adjustment.

Is it possible this factory 11 speed bike has a 10 speed hub installed?
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Old 03-27-17, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott
Your image link doesn't work.
Argh. Can someone recommend a way to paste an image URL? Why doesn't the forum software uploading from my local photo gallery?
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Old 03-27-17, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ff9700
that's what it behaves like, and in fact would be the simplest explanation. But this is a factory install of 11 sp di2 with 11 sp hub so not sure why a spacer would be needed?
It's an easy thing to check. Factories make mistakes too. It would probably solve your problem in any case. Did you check to see if the lock ring on the cassette is tight?
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Old 03-27-17, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 2manybikes
It's an easy thing to check. Factories make mistakes too. It would probably solve your problem in any case. Did you check to see if the lock ring on the cassette is tight?
silly question...how can I determine if the hub/wheel is 10-speed but with an 11 speed cassette installed?

I did have the LBS check the cassette and watched them tighten the lock ring.
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Old 03-27-17, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ff9700
Argh. Can someone recommend a way to paste an image URL? Why doesn't the forum software uploading from my local photo gallery?

Code:
]img]https://somewhere.over.the.rainbow/mypicture.jpg]/img]
where I have reversed the opening brackets so that you can see them. (bbcode markup language)


I'm pretty sure an 11-speed cassette won't even fit on a 10 speed hub. I know I have 11-speed hubs and have a similar problem. The problem is variation in the frame dropout/derailleur hanger spatial position relative to the hub/cassette.
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