Campy 9s shifter and derailleur with Shimano cassette hack
 

Hello All:
I wanted to set up a bike with Campy 9s Ergo shifters and derailleur to work with a Shimano 9s cassette. I have a bike set up like this already using the Shiftmate but I wanted to see if I could make it work without spending another $60 or so.
Sheldon Brown's (RiP) website provides a wealth of information. First his cassette spacing crib sheet includes the distance between cogs: 4.55mm for Campy 9 and 4.34mm for Shimano 9s, a difference of about 5%.
Next, he shows that alternative cable routing can be used to alter the distance traveled with each gear change. I needed to decrease the travel for each click by 5% which means I need to move the cable 5% further away from the pivot. He shows this example: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/d...e-anchor-c.gif.
In looking at my 9s derailleur I measured that the distance from the pivot to where the point where the cable normally pulls to be 35.57mm.
http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/...psmkg26mp4.jpg
By wrapping the cable around the pinch I was able to increase that to 37.46mm, an increase of 5.3%.
http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/...psj4arqulv.jpg
http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/...psn6mdaz7a.jpg
The results, at least for this proof of concept test were really good. I've done my best to show with the pics that the pulley is perfectly lined up on the small and the large cog but it was hard to get the camera angle just right.
http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/...psknvzjlqv.jpg
http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/...ps46re5g1w.jpg
Will set this up on a bike and take it for a ride this weekend.
Cheers,
Jim

Nice one.


I had a bike come in the other day with Sachs New Success Ergos, connected to a RD-6400.


I thought it was odd, and it was. Shifted way too far... I tried an alternate cable clamping, Bob's yer uncle. Cut another groove for the cable with a dremel cut-off wheel, sorted :)

Kimmo- Interesting in that Sachs Ergos were speced to Shimano 7 speed cable pull with Shimano ders (of that era). This is also Campy 8 speed cassette spacing (campy 7 and 8 speed cassettes have 5mm c-c cogs as Shimano 7 spd does). So Sachs Ergos were intended to work with Shimano ders and Shimano 7 or campy 7&8 speed cogs.


So what was the cassette in your recent system? Andy

I owned a bike with Sachs New Success Ergos - circa 1995.

As background, 7 and 8 speed Campagnolo cogsets have 5.0mm cog spacing, which is the same as Shimano 7-speed. Shimano 8 is 4.8mm spacing, which is close enough to 7-speed so as to be cross-compatible. So let's forget about cog spacing - it is not the issue.

I experimented quite a bit with different configurations on this bike. My conclusion is that Sachs New Success Ergos are functionally identical to Campagnolo shifters. As in, they used the same 8-speed shift disk, and they pulled exactly the same amount of cable per 'click'.

I pulled off the Sachs derailleur and replaced it with Shimano 600 Tri-color. It over-shifted. XT rear derailleur: the same problem. Then I installed a Campy rear derailleur from roughly 1995. Worked perfectly. I then took the Sachs rear derailleur and installed it on a bike with 8-speed Ergopower levers. Worked perfectly.

Let's think this through: why would Campagnolo have made a custom shift disk for Sachs for use with Shimano-compatible derailleurs? My conclusion is that they had no motivations to do this, and they never did.

To the topic of making 9-speed Ergopower levers work with a Shimano 9-speed cassette? Use the later vintage of 9-speed levers with the earlier generation of 9-speed Campy derailleurs. Run the math. The result is a perfect matching of cable pull, derailleur mechanical actuation and cog spacing. I've been running this combo for 10 years - perfect shifting.

Just an FYI and kind of relevant to the thread....

My Campy 8 speed indexed downtube shifters and 8 speed RD work fine with an 8 speed Shimano (Sram) cassette.

Probably shouldn't work according to the difference in cog width and spacing. I was prepared to use a Shiftmate but forgot to use it and it just worked anyway.

Dave- I would disagree somewhat with some of your comments. Cog C-C and der throw is vital to index quality. As wear and cable friction induce their changes these issues do not become forgotten, in many cases things get worse. When one builds a system for their own use all kinds of compromise can be overlooked and accepted. But when one gets paid for this stuff the standard is a bit higher.


We agree that Sachs Ergos pull Campy 8 speed cable needs. But I say with good understanding that Sachs intended Shimano compatible ders to do this. The index gear is a different one. Close but not the same. Why would Campy make an index gear for the shifters they made under contract to Sachs? Because of the $. Pure simple business. Campy wasn't in the best spot back then cash flow wise.


I do wonder if your Sachs shifter had the index wheel switched out to a Campy one (or a simple Campy body with a Sachs hood on it) therefore it's working with Campy ders and not Shimano. Andy

The other option to do 9s Campy on 9s Shimano cassettes is:

"Late Model" 9s shifters +
"Early Model" 9s derailleur (or most 8s derailleurs)

And the cable pull should be just about exact.

Campagnolo 11s shifters are also supposed to work reasonably well with older Shimano STI derailleurs to shift 9s (limited to 9 sprockets).

Sigh...

Yes, cog spacing is obviously critical to proper indexing. But 5.0 vs. 4.8mm cog spacing is so close that they are cross compatible. I wasn't suggesting that you could run 11-speed shifters with a 6-speed freewheel.

I have 3 sets of Sachs New Success Ergo shifters sitting in a baggie in my 30-pound bin of old brifters. They all pull the same amount of cable per click. I've measured with calipers. I've taken apart two of the right levers apart. The shift disks are identical to Campagnolo 8-speed disks. The test I performed as outlined in my previous post was done on brand new Sachs shifters - right out of the box. It had never been disassembled or rebuilt.

As far as your business analysis, Sachs in 1994 was on its deathbed, like most of the French bike industry. Campagnolo was doing them a favor in providing brifters for a groupset. Campagnolo would not have been interested in producing special shift disks for Sachs: a highly customized and precision little piece of machining.

If anyone out there has Sachs New Success ergolevers working with Shimano rear derailleurs over a 7 or 8 speed (whatever) cogset, I would be very pleased to know. When I refer to 'working', I mean clean precise shifts each and every time, and dead quiet in-between shifts. Not like the random gear shifting and constant clattering that most of my pals seem to accept as normal drivetrain performance.

Thank you: you know your stuff. Late model 9-speed shifters pull 3.0 mm of cable per click. The early 9 speed (and 8-speed) Campy derailleurs have a mechanical advantage of 1.43. 3.0 x 1.43 = Shimano 9-speed cog spacing.

A happy outcome. The math works, and it works in practice.

Dave I guess we will not agree. I have run a number of my bikes (including two tandems with Sachs Ergo and either Sachs (both New Success and Neos rear ders) or Shimanos with Sachs 7 and 8 speed freewheels for many thousands of miles. A few of my customers did too but as the Shimano juggernaut took over others drifted on. I'd photo the two remaining bikes but it's late and the garage is cold.


My comments about Campy willing to build to a contracted spec speaks to Campy, not Sachs. Sure Sachs was grabbing for straws. No wonder they sold out to Sram a short time later. What companies do in their throws of death can be weird. But remember that Sachs had a strong hold on the city IHG market in Europe for decades before and later, for whatever that segment was worth. Too bad they are leaving it recently.


So we have two different takes on the Sachs Ergo specs. I guess readers will just have to do their own discovery and report back. Not that many will. Andy (who has continued Sachs and campy Ergo use with Shift mates and loves pointed hoods)