Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Chain tool design issue?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Chain tool design issue?

Old 05-13-17, 07:38 AM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Chain tool design issue?

I have a Park Tool CT-3 chain tool.

It has the possibility of replacing the chain tool pin. This has never been necessary for me though - but there seems to be some design issues with this "feature".

The tool works perfect when turning the handle clockwise for removing the chain pins, but as soon as I reverse direction to remove the tool from the chain after successfully splitting the chain, the chain tool pin itself will "loosen itself" and disconnect from the tool handle. I then have to use some pliers or similar to fasten the tool pin again and try to successfully remove the tool chain pin from the chain casings.

Here are the chain tool pin and you can see the thread direction that makes them loosen when reversing the tool handle direction:

CTP Replacement Chain Tool Pin | Park Tool

Anything I've missed here?
steinrr is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 08:15 AM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
IthaDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ithaca, NY
Posts: 4,915

Bikes: Click on the #YOLO

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Grind the burr off the end of the chain pin.

I'm somewhat surprised the pin is getting left behind, I would have though the grossly different thread pitches (very fine for t-handle, very coarse for pin) would prevent what you're describing. I've run a park chain tool for years with a removable pin and never had that issue.

Wait, Have you already ground the burr off the end of the pin? Which is making the pin is too short now so you have to jam the tool pin up to the taper to get enough chain rivet pushed through, but because you're up to the hilt on the chain tool pin, it's getting stuck? ... and subsequently unthreading.
__________________

Shimano : Click :: Campy : Snap :: SRAM : Bang
IthaDan is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 08:17 AM
  #3  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,353 Times in 860 Posts
maybe use has created that burr?
fietsbob is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 08:29 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for replying. I did not quite understand your question;

"Wait, Have you already ground the burr off the end of the pin? Which is making the pin is too short now so you have to jam the tool pin up to the taper to get enough chain rivet pushed through, but because you're up to the hilt on the chain tool pin, it's getting stuck? ... and subsequently unthreading."

English not being my first language, and there were some words here that I could not understand (and that Google Translate could not help me with). Could you rephrase the question or explain the words "burr", "taper", "hilt" in this context?

I really just use the tool to push a random chain rivet out when I replace chains, and when I reverse to extract the tool pin - it is just being left behind due to the friction in the chain casings. Nothing special here. Normal procedure when I remove a chain. With a fixed chain tool pin - it would have been no issue.
steinrr is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 09:28 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,908

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4127 Post(s)
Liked 3,699 Times in 2,218 Posts
Originally Posted by steinrr
Thanks for replying. I did not quite understand your question;

"Wait, Have you already ground the burr off the end of the pin? Which is making the pin is too short now so you have to jam the tool pin up to the taper to get enough chain rivet pushed through, but because you're up to the hilt on the chain tool pin, it's getting stuck? ... and subsequently unthreading."

English not being my first language, and there were some words here that I could not understand (and that Google Translate could not help me with). Could you rephrase the question or explain the words "burr", "taper", "hilt" in this context?

I really just use the tool to push a random chain rivet out when I replace chains, and when I reverse to extract the tool pin - it is just being left behind due to the friction in the chain casings. Nothing special here. Normal procedure when I remove a chain. With a fixed chain tool pin - it would have been no issue.

Only grind the outer diameter of the pin, leaving the length as is. Andy
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 09:32 AM
  #6  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
Only grind the outer diameter of the pin, leaving the length as is. Andy
Why would I want to grind the pin? Is it delivered to thick from Park? I cannot see why it should be necessary...
steinrr is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 09:45 AM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1074 Post(s)
Liked 295 Times in 222 Posts
Originally Posted by steinrr
Thanks for replying. I did not quite understand your question...
.... there were some words here that I could not understand (and that Google Translate could not help me with). Could you rephrase the question or explain the words "burr", "taper", "hilt" in this context?
Burr - manufacturing defect. Usually from a cutting/stamping operation. Thin "flakes" or a ridge left after a cut.

Taper - like a cone, only slower to change diameter.
Icicles, carrots are tapered.
Hilt - the transition from the working part to the handle/held part of a tool.
dabac is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 09:48 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dabac
Burr - manufacturing defect. Usually from a cutting/stamping operation. Thin "flakes" or a ridge left after a cut.

Taper - like a cone, only slower to change diameter.
Icicles, carrots are tapered.
Hilt - the transition from the working part to the handle/held part of a tool.
Ok thanks for the explanation.

I don't think that there is some damage on the chain tool pin though...
steinrr is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 10:28 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,908

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4127 Post(s)
Liked 3,699 Times in 2,218 Posts
Most every chain tool I've used would develop a burr or mushroom at the pin's tip after use. Modern chains with their peened over pins need even higher chain tool pressures to extract the chain's pin. We use a Park CT3 a number of times a day during the season and find a need to grind off the burr every few weeks. We generally replace the tool's pins once a year. One trick I've done for years when pushing out a chain pin is to do initial pin pressure so that the chain pin just starts to break free then loosen the tool and retighten to push the chain pin out fully. This lets the tool's pin better align with the chain's. Andy
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 10:47 AM
  #10  
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 13,765

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1749 Post(s)
Liked 1,188 Times in 827 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
Most every chain tool I've used would develop a burr or mushroom at the pin's tip after use. Modern chains with their peened over pins need even higher chain tool pressures to extract the chain's pin. We use a Park CT3 a number of times a day during the season and find a need to grind off the burr every few weeks. We generally replace the tool's pins once a year. One trick I've done for years when pushing out a chain pin is to do initial pin pressure so that the chain pin just starts to break free then loosen the tool and retighten to push the chain pin out fully. This lets the tool's pin better align with the chain's. Andy
This can GREATLY extend the life of even the very cheap chain tools. A little bit at a time and then realign. Both directions.
I got about 3-4 years (bike flippers use) from my 2nd cheap tool before the threads got worn & sloppy. The 1st one lasted about 2 chains with my "beginners" technique. Lube the threads.
Bill Kapaun is online now  
Old 05-13-17, 11:12 AM
  #11  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,353 Times in 860 Posts
Displacement Happens , pushing on the end will mushroom it a little bit wider. around the tip.

I have a 45 year old chain tool that still works ..




....
fietsbob is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 11:26 AM
  #12  
Generally bewildered
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 3,035

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1152 Post(s)
Liked 339 Times in 250 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
Most every chain tool I've used would develop a burr or mushroom at the pin's tip after use.
Andy, does this strike you as poor steel type selection, or poor heat treat/temper? I mean we can make machine gun firing pins that face much more severe duty, and they don't break or mushroom. We are talking about a manual press operation with low force, and the off-axis forces are minimal (that is, there is little force that would induce a buckling mode failure). I have to think that a little piece of O-1 or O-2, or A-2, or L-6, properly hardened and tempered would last years.

Kind of dissapointing for Park to sell a tool that has a useful service life between maintenance of two weeks!
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 05:31 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656

Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2025 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,091 Times in 737 Posts
Blue Loctite.
HillRider is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 07:41 PM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Boulder County, CO
Posts: 1,513

Bikes: '92 22" Cannondale M2000, '92 Cannondale R1000 Tandem, another modern Canndondale tandem, Two Holy Grail '86 Cannondale ST800s 27" (68.5cm) Touring bike w/Superbe Pro components and Phil Wood hubs. A bunch of other 27" ST frames & bikes.

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Park makes a lot of crappy tools. The absence of a full line competitor making quality tools doesn't mean Park tools are actually "good."

I've been more than happy with every duplicate tool I've bought from Pedro's vs Park. I've duplicated, triplicated, and even quintuplicated some tools...but I like bike tools!

Still I couldn't be happier with the two generations of Pedro's chain tools I have. I never touch the Park chain tools. I do like the Park mini brute for carrying on rides though! The only shop chain tool I want is the rare Shimano Pro tool with rosewood handles.

Other than that I'vd given up on Park and will stick with either Pedro's chain tool. Better hardened steel pins. My oldest Pedro's chain tool has extra pins in the handle. Never needed 'em yet,

Also firing pins exert little real force, certainly nothing in orders of magnitude to compare to what a chain tool exerts on the pin.
mtnbke is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 07:59 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
dsbrantjr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 8,319

Bikes: '93 Trek 750, '92 Schwinn Crisscross, '93 Mongoose Alta

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1438 Post(s)
Liked 1,091 Times in 722 Posts
Originally Posted by mtnbke

Also firing pins exert little real force, certainly nothing in orders of magnitude to compare to what a chain tool exerts on the pin.
They are also impacting thin brass or some other soft alloy, not steel.
dsbrantjr is offline  
Old 05-18-17, 05:34 AM
  #16  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Got the following tip from Park Tool themselves. Will try that:
Sorry the pin is coming loose after pushing a rivet from a chain.
The CTP pin is simply not installed tight enough into the “T-Handle”.

I suggest a drop of TLR-1 Medium [blue] or TLR-2 Hi strength [red] thread-locker on the threads and tighten the pin 7-9Nm with a 7mm 12 point socket/wrench.
Simply unscrew/remove the “T” handle from the chain tool, unscrew/remove the CTP from the “T”-handle with a 7mm or 9/32" 12 pt. box end/socket. Ad a drop of thread-lock, screw the CTP in and tighten 7-9Nm.
This will keep the pin tight during use and allow for removal/replacement when breakage occurs.
steinrr is offline  
Old 05-18-17, 09:52 AM
  #17  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Bozeman
Posts: 4,094

Bikes: 199? Landshark Roadshark, 198? Mondonico Diamond, 1987 Panasonic DX-5000, 1987 Bianchi Limited, Univega... Chrome..., 1989 Schwinn Woodlands, Motobecane USA Record, Raleigh Tokul 2

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by steinrr
Got the following tip from Park Tool themselves. Will try that:
Sorry the pin is coming loose after pushing a rivet from a chain.
The CTP pin is simply not installed tight enough into the “T-Handle”.

I suggest a drop of TLR-1 Medium [blue] or TLR-2 Hi strength [red] thread-locker on the threads and tighten the pin 7-9Nm with a 7mm 12 point socket/wrench.
Simply unscrew/remove the “T” handle from the chain tool, unscrew/remove the CTP from the “T”-handle with a 7mm or 9/32" 12 pt. box end/socket. Ad a drop of thread-lock, screw the CTP in and tighten 7-9Nm.
This will keep the pin tight during use and allow for removal/replacement when breakage occurs.
Do NOT use RED. You'll never get the pin out if it breaks.

Replacement pins come with blue locktight on the threads.
corrado33 is offline  
Old 05-18-17, 10:14 AM
  #18  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,353 Times in 860 Posts
Heat breaks down Loc Tite.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 05-18-17, 10:24 AM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656

Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2025 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,091 Times in 737 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob
Heat breaks down Loc Tite.
Yes but a LOT of heat, like >400º F. Blue (Grade 242) will keep the pin in place but is removable with hand tools and no heating.
HillRider is offline  
Old 05-18-17, 05:10 PM
  #20  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,440
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 861 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times in 135 Posts
I'm not sure what you're all talking about as far as "burrs," but I can tell you that, when I ran my bicycle recycling program in the early 2000's and we had about a dozen CT-3's in the shop, the problem you described was very common. I used to just tighten the tool with needle nose pliers and that would solve the issue for a few weeks at a time.
Papa Tom is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
fractal5
Bicycle Mechanics
16
07-31-16 04:03 PM
paperback rider
Bicycle Mechanics
3
08-25-12 05:42 PM
yummygooey
Bicycle Mechanics
6
07-19-11 10:59 PM
MuppetMower
Singlespeed & Fixed Gear
17
04-13-11 06:26 PM
tafkam
Road Cycling
0
03-06-11 01:53 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.