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Campagnolo shifters & Shimano mech easy, cheap solution

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Campagnolo shifters & Shimano mech easy, cheap solution

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Old 07-20-17, 04:35 PM
  #26  
Andy_K 
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The shifters I'm using are a cringe-worthy combination of pieces. I started with 9-speed Centaur shifters (from 2002, I think -- Ergopower). These have micro-ratcheting for the front derailleur. The parts to rebuild these are still available, with the exception of the actual indexing gear. I rebuilt them because the shifting was mushy and often slipped. Rebuilding didn't fix the problem, so I concluded that it was the indexing gear that was worn out. So I bought a Record 10-speed pre-2008 Ultrashift right shift assembly ($90 at a local shop). I don't know if Campy is still making these (seems unlikely) or if there are just a lot of them left in the supply chain, but they seem to be more readily available than complete new Campy shifters. I just needed to swap in the blade, hood and clamp from my old lever. This isn't exactly the old level of serviceability, but for under $100 I had a brand new Record-level 10-speed shifter.
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Old 07-30-17, 08:11 PM
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I also noticed this possibility, and tried this recently with 2009 Centaur Ultrashift shifters and a 105 5800 SS rear derailleur, with a 105 5600 12-25 cassette. Couldn't seem to get it working properly, it would either undershift in the higher (smaller) cogs, or if correcting for that, would overshift in the lower (bigger) cogs. I'm assuming that OP has not had these problems.

That said, I'm hardly an expert mechanic and would be interested to see the results of others who have tried. A shame, as it seems like it would be a really good economical Campy setup if paired with the 2015 10 speed Veloce levers.

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Old 08-01-17, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Meanwhile, I'm also in the planning stages of a bike that I hope will have "new" 10-speed Campy shifters (2014 Centaur), a "new" 10-speed rear derailleur (2003 Chorus long cage), with a 10-speed Shimano-splined cassette. Like you I've read reports that this will "kind of work" without further gymnastics, but I don't want just "kind of working" so I'm planning further gymnastics. My plan is to replace the 10-speed cassette spacers in the Shimano cassette with 9-speed spacers. This should approximate Campy spacing over the part of the cassette that has replaceable spacers. The Shimano cassette only has four replaceable spacers, but the limit screws will fix the innermost and outermost gears in the correct place, leaving me with just four gears that are only approximate, and those should be within 0.2 or 0.4 mm. The catch here is that the 9-speed spacers will make the cassette 0.8mm wider. Happily, I was planning to use the 10-speed cassette on an 11-speed hub, so I have 0.8mm to spare.
FWIW, this worked brilliantly. As I mentioned above, I'm using 10-speed Centaur shifters with a 10-speed Chorus long cage rear derailleur. I paired that with a 12-30 CS-6700 10-speed Ultegra cassette on an 11-speed FH-5800 hub.

I tested it out with the cassette using its original 10-speed spacers and the shifting was indeed awful. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, but just putting it together and trying a normal setup I could only get four or five transitions working well.

So I replaced the four 10-speed spacers in the cassette with Shimano 9-speed spacers. Here's a diagram from Shimano to help you visualize what I'm doing.


The replaceable spacers here are labeled as part 12. As you can see, the 11T top gear cassettes only have three replaceable spacers. The 11T, 12T and 13T cogs have integrated spacers and the built-in carrier for the three largest cogs provides spacing not just between those three cogs but also between the smallest of the cogs and the next cog in the cassette.

Anyway, I bought a pack of ten 9-speed spacers on eBay for around $10. I took the 10-speed cassette off and replaced the spacers. The 11-speed hub includes a 1.85mm spacer to allow a 10-speed cassette to be used on the hub. Because switching to 9-speed spacers made the cassette wider I did not use that spacer. I did, however, still use the small spacer that comes with the cassette (labeled 13 above). In theory I should have used an additional 1mm spacer, but I found that the cassette tightened down correctly without doing that.

Finally, I would note that this approach only applies to 105 and Ultegra cassettes. Tiagra cassettes only have one spacer because they have more cogs riveted together. It may be possible to replace even more spacers by getting rid of the rivets. Dura-Ace 10-speed cassettes only have two spacers because they have a second cluster of cogs connected by a carrier.
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Old 08-02-17, 11:26 AM
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In 2006 I set my wife's bike up with new Campy 10 speed shifters and new 10 Campy RD with a Shimano 9 speed cassette. She has been happy with it for thousands of miles. Works well but not perfect. No problems with 10 speed chain, but the wider 9 speed chain makes some noise.

Converting a 10 speed cassette to 9 speed spacing is a good idea if you have a wider 11 speed hub.

Seems easiest to me to use 10 speed campy shifters and SRAM 10 RD with Shimano 10 speed cassette. Works well without duplicating manufacturers.
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Old 08-02-17, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
In 2006 I set my wife's bike up with new Campy 10 speed shifters and new 10 Campy RD with a Shimano 9 speed cassette. She has been happy with it for thousands of miles. Works well but not perfect. No problems with 10 speed chain, but the wider 9 speed chain makes some noise.


You should be able to make that better by swapping in 10-speed spacers.
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Old 08-05-17, 09:50 AM
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So I've now done a thousand miles or so with this setup and I have to confirm Raisinberry's observation. Although it works fine when you first set it up on the stand, the Campy lever pulls a smidge too much cable per shift for the derailleur and so after a few rides when the adjustment drifts a little, it gets noisy as the chain starts rubbing on the shift ramps. It never missed a shift or anything but it not as perfect as I first thought. Like AndyK, I had some 9spd spacers so I re-spaced the (Ultegra 12-25) cassette so it now works fine but I also by chance have 11spd hubs and this may not be possible on narrower 10spd hubs. This work-around makes the shifting near flawless but it sort of brings this combination back to kludge-grade like most of the others.
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Old 08-05-17, 11:07 AM
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IDK where it came from but I'm packing to ship a Da Vinci Tandem back east, with a piece added onto the Sram RD to use a Campag Brifter.
it is a curved extension on the cable anchor bolt.. its not like the J-tech pulley set..



So, start your search engines.. willing to drop the easy or cheap, requirement?





....





....

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Old 08-08-17, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149 View Post
So I've now done a thousand miles or so with this setup and I have to confirm Raisinberry's observation. Although it works fine when you first set it up on the stand, the Campy lever pulls a smidge too much cable per shift for the derailleur and so after a few rides when the adjustment drifts a little, it gets noisy as the chain starts rubbing on the shift ramps. It never missed a shift or anything but it not as perfect as I first thought. Like AndyK, I had some 9spd spacers so I re-spaced the (Ultegra 12-25) cassette so it now works fine but I also by chance have 11spd hubs and this may not be possible on narrower 10spd hubs. This work-around makes the shifting near flawless but it sort of brings this combination back to kludge-grade like most of the others.
This may be why the classic 'SRAMPagnolo' setup seems to work - Campag 10 speed shifter, 10 speed SRAM derailleur and 10 speed Shimano/SRAM cassette (although I've never tried this one) - there's less movement with the SRAM derailleur for the same cable pull.
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Old 08-17-17, 08:35 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149 View Post
Yes, the new 11 spd Shimano are only theoretically the same ratio as old campy (1.4:1) but in my setup it shifts great and setup was dead easy. I bolted it on, tightened the cable in the highest gear and it was pretty much good to go with a just a tweak of the adjuster - I didn't touch the B-tension at all. And my frame is a beat up old Fuji that has had the rear spacing spread from 126 to 130mm and with a hanger that is not dead straight. But my caveat is I've not ridden many modern bikes (none actually) so I can't really compare the shift quality to a well setup new bike.
So if someone else wants to try it I see Bikewagon are selling Shimano 105 5700 rear derailleurs for $25 right now....
hi, sorry for my poor English. I'm on the same boat.
I have an old scott with shimergo shifters centaur 10 spd , deore 9 spd rear derailler, sram cassette 8 speed. I live in south of France near col du Tourmalet : I need 11 32 cassette
my son have an ultegra 6600 group. best shifting quality but difficult to put more than 30 and left shifter campagnolo is just great to have no noise without spending hours in cable ajusting.


you have to take care with average measurement



with centaur I have

small cog is 1

1 to 2 2.5 mm
2 to 3 2.7 mm
3 to 4 2.7 mm
4 to 5 2.5 mm
5 to 6 2.7 mm
6 to 7 3.10 mm
7 to 8 3.10 mm
8 to 9 3.6 mm
9 to 10 2 mm only . that's the problem of shimergo IMHO. I've seen centaur cassette with a very small spacer in last position.

with ultegra 6600

1 to 2 2.3 mm
2 to 3 1.60 mm
3 to 4 2.90 mm ( cables are old , i think there is a trouble somewhere )
4 to 5 1.50 mm
5 to 6 2.10 mm
6 to 7 2.20 mm
7 to 8 2.20 mm
8 to 9 3.80 mm
9 to 10 3.40 mm ( yes two big ratio for shimano vs one for campy )


for my shimergo I don't use first and last '' click " of the shifter.

my 2 cents.
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Old 08-24-17, 09:48 AM
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Anyone using 11 speed campy levers with a Shimano RD ?


The campy RDs are so expensive and the newer Shimano stuff (7800 and later) clears a 30t sprocket
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Old 08-24-17, 06:48 PM
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I'm the OP of this thread and after having done a few thousand miles (k's) with the Campy 10 spd shifters and Shimano 11 spd rear derailleur, I think the sometimes quoted "derailleur pull ratio" of Shimano 11spd being 1.4:1 is not correct. My measurements put it about 1.48:1
All modern Camp derailleurs apparently have a ratio of approx 1.5:1.
So - accordingly, a Camp 11spd shifter should (or I should say "might") be close enough with either a campy OR shimano 11spd rear der.
My guess is older Shimano 10 spd derailleurs with Camp 11 spd shifters will be way off.
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Old 08-25-17, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149 View Post
I'm the OP of this thread and after having done a few thousand miles (k's) with the Campy 10 spd shifters and Shimano 11 spd rear derailleur, I think the sometimes quoted "derailleur pull ratio" of Shimano 11spd being 1.4:1 is not correct. My measurements put it about 1.48:1
All modern Camp derailleurs apparently have a ratio of approx 1.5:1.
So - accordingly, a Camp 11spd shifter should (or I should say "might") be close enough with either a campy OR shimano 11spd rear der.
My guess is older Shimano 10 spd derailleurs with Camp 11 spd shifters will be way off.
Thanks for reporting back!

I'm still very pleased with the results of using 10-speed Campy shifters with a pre-2001 Campy rear derailleur and a Shimano 10-speed cassette. I did end up having some concerns about how close the rear derailleur was getting to the spokes, so I sacrificed a gear (I never use the 11T cog anyway) and installed a Gevenalle HOUP to give myself extra clearance. The cassette spacing, however, is unchanged and it indexes excellently. It probably wouldn't have been an issue if I had been using an 11-speed hub (since that has a spacer behind the 10-speed cassette already). The thumb shifter has a much more pronounced action than you get with Shimano shifters or even the newer Campy systems I've used (Centaur, Athena), but it's my understanding that some people like that. Once in a while the transition to a smaller cog feels rather heavy. I think that's a characteristic of the derailleur, or possibly the derailleur action not quite matching the precise ramping design of the cogs. I want to emphasize that I'm nit-picking here -- trying to describe everything that isn't absolutely perfect.

I'm also still happy with the 10-speed Campy shifters + modern Campy rear derailleur + 10-speed Shimano cassette with 9-speed spacers solution. I feel like that one doesn't quite as cleanly -- like I can feel the chain scraping the teeth of the cassette in a couple of the outer gears as it drops into place -- but it does go into gear 100% of the time and I never worry that it's going to jump out of gear. Again, I'm nit-picking. It might be that I just don't have this one adjusted quite as well. I haven't felt the need to put it on the stand and tinker with it.

I've only logged around 200 miles with the new+new+mixed-spacers solution and around 100 miles with the new+old+stock-spacers solution, so I can't say yet how much upkeep it will require. So far it has been none.

I was able to negotiate a trade with Dfrost for a Sachs New Success rear derailleur. I haven't had occasion to put it on a bike yet, but I'm trying to manufacture an excuse. On visual inspection it doesn't match any Shimano or Campagnolo derailleur I have. It is very close to pre-11-speed Shimano derailleurs, but the tab on which the cable attachment bolt is located is longer. I tried to think through the three-dimensional motion of the derailleur body to come up with a way to measure and calculate the pull ratio, but it was more effort than I felt like putting in. Measure a few parts that I think might serve as a reasonable approximation gives me some hope that the New Success pull ratio is 1.4 as I had hoped it would be. It's also a very good looking component.
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Old 08-25-17, 03:30 PM
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Nice info, Thanks.
I am running 4 bikes with 10 speed Campy shifters, one all Campy and the other 3 use Shimano cassette with SRAM and Shimano Rear derailleurs with J-tech. I also used the "hubbub" method with 9 speed before.

I am wondering if I can use a 10 speed Campy shifters, Shimano 11 speed mountain bike rear derailleur and Shimano 10 speed cassette for wider gear range or I should use only Shimano 11 speed road rear derailleur? Mountain rear derailleur will let me use 12-32, or 12-34 cassettes, road is limited to 11-28, I think.
Thanks
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Old 08-25-17, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
I am wondering if I can use a 10 speed Campy shifters, Shimano 11 speed mountain bike rear derailleur and Shimano 10 speed cassette for wider gear range or I should use only Shimano 11 speed road rear derailleur? Mountain rear derailleur will let me use 12-32, or 12-34 cassettes, road is limited to 11-28, I think.
I don't think that combination will work. The Art's Cyclery post puts the Shimano MTB 11-speed rear derailleur ratio at 1.1, which won't give you nearly enough movement with Campy shifters.

FWIW, I'm using a 12-30 Shimano 10-speed cassette with a long cage Chorus rear derailleur (~2003, I think) on the bike that has the mixed spacer set up.

The easiest thing you can do is to use a Shimano 9-speed MTB rear derailleur with either the JTek piece or hubbub cable routing. Shimano's 9-speed and earlier MTB rear derailleurs had the same pull ratio as their 10-speed and earlier road rear derailleurs. The 9-speed rear derailleur will have no problem with a 10-speed cassette if you get all the other things right.
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Old 08-26-17, 10:58 AM
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I also found the 10 spd cassette with 9spd spacers to shift badly. Probably because the gap between the cogs is too great and the chain is not wide enough to catch the adjacent ramps.
My solution (again, Camp 10 spd shifters and Shim 11 spd rear der) was to modify the cable wrap pulley inside the shifter. I had a spare one as there was a replacement for this part (Campagnolo part EC-SR060) because the original shifted poorly so I was not afraid to hack mine. If you search they may be still available but this solution only works for those campy shifters using this pulley.
This is also the basis of the "growtac equal pulley" that is sometimes sold on ebay (and is shown in the linked youtube I posted earlier in this thread) but in their case they increase the size of the pulley to use a Shimano 10 spd rear der.
There is also some info here:
Shimergo or Will my x speed shifters work with a y speed mech and a z speed cassette?
I used a file to take 0.5mm off the radius of the pulley (which is made of a fibrous plastic) which I calculated would reduce the total cable pull by about 2mm which is what I needed. The pic shows (approx) the arc in red where I reduced the radius.
It now shifts perfect and you can see the der lines up with each gear exactly.
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Old 08-28-17, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149 View Post
I also found the 10 spd cassette with 9spd spacers to shift badly. Probably because the gap between the cogs is too great and the chain is not wide enough to catch the adjacent ramps.
I'm very surprised to read that you had that experience. As I noted above, that combination is working very well for me (replacing just four spacers).
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Old 08-28-17, 03:06 PM
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Most shifts were good but the occasional upshift would click-click before catching or hesitate a fraction on the downshifts. And I also used 4 spacers (In Ultegra cassettes the 3 largest cogs are joined) but I admit I did not spend a lot of time fine-tuning. My real reason for going the route of taking down the cable pulley is that I'm building new wheels and using a 10 spd hub so I can't fit the 9sp spacers.
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Old 10-06-17, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
Good find. Another rear derailleur that allows campy 10 shifters to run Shimano 10 cassettes is SRAM Apex or Rival
"Exact Acuation" Have run it on our tandems for many thousands of miles. I would say it is not a perfect match but a good one.
I was running with campy centaur ergopower + RD shimano deore + sram 8 s.

I make the plunge with RD SRAM X9 + ultegra 6600 cassette + barrel adjuster JAGWIRE

big upgrade.
big problem with housing cable, there is too much friction in the housing between frame and RD;
My English is too poor to explain; have a look at the pick number 4

https://volagi.wordpress.com/2013/06...cable-routing/

I had to manage something special, housing begins near the bottom braquet
and finishes in the RD.

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Old 01-11-19, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149 View Post
I also found the 10 spd cassette with 9spd spacers to shift badly. Probably because the gap between the cogs is too great and the chain is not wide enough to catch the adjacent ramps.
My solution (again, Camp 10 spd shifters and Shim 11 spd rear der) was to modify the cable wrap pulley inside the shifter. I had a spare one as there was a replacement for this part (Campagnolo part EC-SR060) because the original shifted poorly so I was not afraid to hack mine. If you search they may be still available but this solution only works for those campy shifters using this pulley.
This is also the basis of the "growtac equal pulley" that is sometimes sold on ebay (and is shown in the linked youtube I posted earlier in this thread) but in their case they increase the size of the pulley to use a Shimano 10 spd rear der.
There is also some info here:
Shimergo or Will my x speed shifters work with a y speed mech and a z speed cassette?
I used a file to take 0.5mm off the radius of the pulley (which is made of a fibrous plastic) which I calculated would reduce the total cable pull by about 2mm which is what I needed. The pic shows (approx) the arc in red where I reduced the radius.
It now shifts perfect and you can see the der lines up with each gear exactly.
I apologize for raising a thread from the dead but this is some interesting stuff. @bluehills3149 I have a Felt VR40 with Tiagra 4700 RD and 10 speed cassette. I read the entire thread twice and if I got it right, I can use Campy 10 speed shifters on my current system without any kind of shift adapter? This is great news to me if it's true; I just can't get used to the Shimano lever set up.
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Old 01-11-19, 02:30 PM
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Excited by the prospect of being able to use a Shimano 11-speed rear derailluer with Campagnolo shifters, I had to try.

So I mated a Record 10-speed shifter with a 105 (5800) rear derailleur and a Campagnolo 10-speed cassette. It overshifted. That is, the derailleur exhibited too much travel to index properly. So a Tiagra 4700 rear derailleur will have the same behaviour.

I estimate that Shimano's new rear derailleurs have a mechanical advantage somewhat higher than 1.5:1.

In order for (newish) Campy shifters to work with a Shimano cassette (same # of speeds), this ratio has to be 1.43:1. For Campy shifters to work with a Campy cassette, this has to be 1.5:1.
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Old 01-12-19, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Excited by the prospect of being able to use a Shimano 11-speed rear derailluer with Campagnolo shifters, I had to try.

So I mated a Record 10-speed shifter with a 105 (5800) rear derailleur and a Campagnolo 10-speed cassette. It overshifted. That is, the derailleur exhibited too much travel to index properly. So a Tiagra 4700 rear derailleur will have the same behaviour.

I estimate that Shimano's new rear derailleurs have a mechanical advantage somewhat higher than 1.5:1.

In order for (newish) Campy shifters to work with a Shimano cassette (same # of speeds), this ratio has to be 1.43:1. For Campy shifters to work with a Campy cassette, this has to be 1.5:1.
Thanks Dave. I guess I'm going to have to learn the Shimano brifter system.
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Old 01-12-19, 02:33 PM
  #47  
Dave Mayer
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Originally Posted by nomadmax View Post
Thanks Dave. I guess I'm going to have to learn the Shimano brifter system.
I wouldn't. I've used Ergopower for the last 20 years. Over the last year, I've put about 200 days on STI, which includes Ultegra, 105 and Tiagra 9, 10 and 11 speed systems.

Bottom line: Ergopower is simply superior, mainly due to ergonomics, lower lever travel, and the multiple downshift capability.

So I would commit to an all Campy-system.

Or: the hack that works in most of my bikes is a Shimano 10-speed hub & cassette, Campy 10-speed shifters (Ultrashift) and a Campy derailleur from 1992-2000.

This works perfectly, every time.
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Old 01-12-19, 02:55 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I wouldn't. I've used Ergopower for the last 20 years. Over the last year, I've put about 200 days on STI, which includes Ultegra, 105 and Tiagra 9, 10 and 11 speed systems.

Bottom line: Ergopower is simply superior, mainly due to ergonomics, lower lever travel, and the multiple downshift capability.

So I would commit to an all Campy-system.

Or: the hack that works in most of my bikes is a Shimano 10-speed hub & cassette, Campy 10-speed shifters (Ultrashift) and a Campy derailleur from 1992-2000.

This works perfectly, every time.
I agree wholeheartedly. But, this bike is a gravel bike with a 30/46 11-34 10 speed. There probably isn't a cheap hack for that.
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Old 01-12-19, 08:31 PM
  #49  
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I didn't read through it all, but what I have that works is a Campy 10 brifter/derailleur and a 10sp Shimano Ultegra 12/25 cassette, except that the cassette has extra .2mm spacers between each of the loose cogs with the cassette mounted on an 11 speed freehub. It won't work on a 9/10sp freehub because you run out of hub space. The extra spacers were hand cut from polystyrene sheets but you could look for machined metal spacers on the net, but good luck with that, getting the right size. It shifts really well, except that I have all this mounted on my trainer so how it would work on the road is still undetermined. Some Ultegra cassettes have more loose cogs than others and more is better. There is also a 1mm spacer at the rear. This makes the small cog fall into the same position as a real Campy cassette. It all just works and I can swap my wheel in and out with the trainer and I don't have to adjust and everything is quiet.
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Old 01-16-19, 03:14 AM
  #50  
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campy brifters 10 speed + sram rear derailler MTB exact actuation + cassette 12 to 19 shimano ultegra 6600 , 22 sram, spider sram 25 28 32 36 . still running strong since my last post june 2017 .

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