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Campagnolo shifters & Shimano mech – easy, cheap solution

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Campagnolo shifters & Shimano mech – easy, cheap solution

Old 07-13-17, 06:55 AM
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Campagnolo shifters & Shimano mech – easy, cheap solution

I’m just returning to road cycling after a 9 yr hiatus from a bad knee and wanted to build a road bike using some old parts I had around . First I had on hand some 10 spd Campagnolo veloce Ultra shift shifters and I also had some Shimano spaced wheels which led me to look at the “shimergo” option to see if there were any new ideas on how to marry these disparate parts.
I’m no stranger to this, having once tried Campy 9spd shifters & der with a Shimano 9 spd cassette but the results were less than stellar, despite what others said so I was weary of half baked solutions again -like the supposed use of Sram 10 spd der or unconventional cable clamping.
Of course there is the J-tek solution or the shimano-cassettes-with-campy-spacings but my ideal solution was cheap, used of the shelf components and elegant (I never quite liked the idea of the j-tek thingy hanging of my derailleur or the hubbub kludge).
My “promised-land” solution is Campy shifters (cheap, light, reliable & ergonomic), a Shimano derailleur (cheap, light & reliable) paired with any Shimano spaced cassette which are cheap and have the best ratio options.
My first idea.
Many years ago, a Japanese seller on Ebay was selling something called the “magical pulley” (or at least that’s what I remember) which changed out the Campy lever internal pulley around which the gear cable wrapped to one of a different diameter which altered the cable pull but they were about $50 shipped. I toyed with buying a new campy pulley and dremelling it down to change the pull ratio but never did so.
Some details of the “magical” or “growtac equal pulley” being installed is here…
Confusion about Campagnolo linear vs variable cable pull
I posted recently about the myth that Campy shifters do not pull at a consistent rate and based on my findings here
http://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...able-pull.html
I found both Shimano & Campy levers pull in a non-linear manner. This important finding eliminates the idea that this can never be a successful marriage.
My Solution
I was browsing and came across these sites..
A guide to rear shifting | Cycling UK
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycl...ing_Dimensions
Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility
and I noticed an old-style Campy derailleur has an almost ideal pull ratio for matching new Campy 10 spd shifters to Shimano rear mechs but these are close on 15 years old so any old units would be clapped out by now and probably expensive anyway. Wouldn’t it be great, I thought, if there was another modern der with a pull ration of 1.4:1?
Well, as I re-read the blog.artscyclery.com I almost fell of my chair with excitement. You know the eager kid and the back of the classroom with his hand in the air, grunting to get attention so he can shout out the answer? Well, that’s how I felt as I read any Shimano 11 spd (or Tiagra 4700 10spd) rear derailleur has a pull ratio of 1.4:1 as that is the golden ratio required to enable a 10 spd campy lever to use all Shimano rear parts. And all the info was right there but no-one seems to have joined the dots and as far as I can tell, nobody has published anything on this combination.
And it gets better as this combination should also work with 9spd ie Campy 9spd shifters with Shimano 9 spd der and cassette although this I have not tried yet. It also means a Tiagra 4700 shifter “should” pull the same cable as a campy 10 spd shifter and they are basically interchangeable.
The attached table (copied from the wikibooks site) shows what works where I substituted “Shimano 11spd” for “Old campy”as they both have a 1.4 ratio.

As you can see, for 10 spd we a standard Shimano setup is designed for a 3.95 mm cog pitch and this hybrid is calculated to shift 3.97mm which is only 0.5% error. Also note 9spd wants 4.35mm and this gives an almost exact 4.36mm per shift so it should work perfectly also.
I’ve been running for a few weeks a Tiagra 4700 der with the Veloce ultra-shift shifters, Ultegra 12-25 cassette and KMC x93 chain. All shifts have been smooth, quiet and well, it just works as it should.
So in summary:
Any 10 spd Campag Shifter + any road Shimano 11 spd Derailleur (or Tiagra 4700 or microshift 11spd) + and any Shimano spaced 10 spd cassette
OR
Any new style 9 spd Campag Shifter + any road Shimano 11 spd Derailleur (or Tiagra 4700 or microshift 11spd) + and any Shimano spaced 9 spd cassette.
What this open up.
This opens up the ability to build nice cheap 10 spd training or commuting bikes.
Example : I found Veloce levers ($84 & 358 gram) plus Shimano 105 5800 der ($25 & 230 gm ) with any 10 spd cassette of your choice.
Compare this to a similar Chorus der ($200 & 186 gm) with a Centaur cassette ($70 & 248gm) –and that’s not to mention wheels where Shimano compatible hubs are way more common and cheaper than their Campy counterparts.
And, if you’re out touring on your campy 10 spd and the levers dies but the only option is Shimano, a Tiagra 4700 could be substituted to get you going.
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Old 07-13-17, 10:31 AM
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Very cool. I have a bunch of Shimano gear and one bike with Campy Veloce. I haven't thought of mixing, and it's good this worked out so well for you. It does open up possibilities.
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Old 07-13-17, 06:59 PM
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Sweet! I hadn't noticed that about the new Shimano derailleur pull.

I'm in the process of trying to set up a bike with "new" Campy shifters (post-2001 but pre-2008), an "old" (1998) Racing T rear derailleur and a Shimano-splined wheel/cassette. I started out with a pair of 9-speed Centaur shifters and, as promised, the indexing seemed to be correct. Unfortunately the indexing gear in the shifters was pretty worn and so I had problems with the shifts being mushy and the indexing tending to slip (the shifter itself would actually go back a gear in some cases).

After pricing replacement indexing gears (not readily available), I decided to buy a complete new Record shift assembly. I now have a right shifter with Record internals and a Centaur brake blade. I set it up last night only to discover that I didn't have a 10-speed chain. The indexing again seemed correct, but the 9-speed chain I had on the bike from the previous experiment seemed to be rubbing the shift ramps from adjacent cogs, leading it to float up and down as the cassette rotated. I picked up a 10-speed chain today and I'm hopeful that this will resolve the issue for good. I really want this set up to work because the 90's Campy rear derailleurs looked so much nicer than anything they've made since.



Meanwhile, I'm also in the planning stages of a bike that I hope will have "new" 10-speed Campy shifters (2014 Centaur), a "new" 10-speed rear derailleur (2003 Chorus long cage), with a 10-speed Shimano-splined cassette. Like you I've read reports that this will "kind of work" without further gymnastics, but I don't want just "kind of working" so I'm planning further gymnastics. My plan is to replace the 10-speed cassette spacers in the Shimano cassette with 9-speed spacers. This should approximate Campy spacing over the part of the cassette that has replaceable spacers. The Shimano cassette only has four replaceable spacers, but the limit screws will fix the innermost and outermost gears in the correct place, leaving me with just four gears that are only approximate, and those should be within 0.2 or 0.4 mm. The catch here is that the 9-speed spacers will make the cassette 0.8mm wider. Happily, I was planning to use the 10-speed cassette on an 11-speed hub, so I have 0.8mm to spare.

If all else fails, I will consider an 11-speed Shimano RD as a backup plan. I could probably sell my used Chorus RD, buy a new 105 RD-5800 and have enough left over for a pretty nice steak dinner.
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Old 07-14-17, 12:08 PM
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Ten miles later, I'm very happy to report that my 10/9 Ergomano experiment was a complete success! To recap from above, I'm using a 2001-2008 gen Record Ultra 10-speed shifter with a 1998 Racing T rear derailleur and a 10-speed Shimano freehub and cassette (both 4600-series Tiagra). It works! And when I say "it works" I don't mean "it shifts OK if you don't mind a little wonkiness." I mean, "It may be the best shifting bike I own!" I would favorably compare this setup to any fully matched 10-speed Shimano groupset I've tried (which, for the record, includes 6600 and 6700 Ultegra but no Dura-Ace).

On the workstand I was having trouble getting it to shift onto the 28T cog without opening the limit screw enough for the derailleur to be danger close to the spokes, but with a few adjustments to the B-screw I was able to get that corrected. Otherwise with just a normal amount of setup I had it working perfectly on the stand. This morning I rode this bike to work and it performed just as perfectly on the road.

Getting back to the OP (to which my experiment relates by confirming the Campy 10-speed + 1.4 shift ratio rear derailleur theory), I notice that the 1.4 shift ratio figure for new Shimano rear derailleurs is reverse calculated from the measured result rather than published. I mention this because the Art's Cyclery article notes it in contrast to the other ratios which are apparently published by the component manufacturers and differ from the measured results by as much as 3.66%. I suspect the mixing of 10-speed Campy shifters with 11-speed Shimano derailleurs will still work very well, but it does leave some uncertainty. I'd be very interested in hearing the results if anyone tries it.
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Old 07-14-17, 12:49 PM
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Nice work lads.
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Old 07-14-17, 01:41 PM
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I have been running Shimano wheels/cassettes with Campagnolo derailleurs and shifters for years. To recap, here are the combinations that work perfectly for me:

Shimano 9-speed cassette with new (rounded hood) Campagnolo 9-speed shifters and old (8 or 9 speed) generation derailleurs.

Shimano 10-speed cassette with Campagnolo 10-speed shifters and old (8 or 9 speed) generation derailleurs.

The math works, and it works in practice.

I'm excited to learn that the new generation Shimano rear road derailleurs have an actuation ratio of 1.4:1, or the same as the older Campagnolo derailleurs. I am tempted to buy a Tiagra 4700 unit cheap to plug it into one of my mixed-marriage drivetrains. Or perhaps I'll go with one of the new Microshift derailleurs.

I have a many-lifetimes horde of the older Campagnolo derailleurs stashed away for my mixed drivetrains, but this is something new..
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Old 07-14-17, 05:45 PM
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Yes, the new 11 spd Shimano are only theoretically the same ratio as old campy (1.4:1) but in my setup it shifts great and setup was dead easy. I bolted it on, tightened the cable in the highest gear and it was pretty much good to go with a just a tweak of the adjuster - I didn't touch the B-tension at all. And my frame is a beat up old Fuji that has had the rear spacing spread from 126 to 130mm and with a hanger that is not dead straight. But my caveat is I've not ridden many modern bikes (none actually) so I can't really compare the shift quality to a well setup new bike.
So if someone else wants to try it I see Bikewagon are selling Shimano 105 5700 rear derailleurs for $25 right now....
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Old 07-14-17, 09:59 PM
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Why not just run Campy components? You be always been a fan of running "all Campy"

Few people know it but the Campy Ergolever was designed by Sachs before SRAM bought them out. Sachs was lending their engineering brilliance to help Campy escape from their Syncro technology rut. Campy then manufactured some components for Sachs including the New Success Ergolevers.

I'm curious what the 8-sp Sachs branded Ergolevers pull in terms of cable and what the spec on the rear cog pitch is for 8 speed Sachs ARIS cassettes and freewheels. Why?

Because the pulley in the Sachs branded ergolever probably almost exactly opens up a whole new bag of worms. Especially considering you can replace the index disc and the pulley separately, right?

So I'm curious what one could do with those bits.
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Old 07-15-17, 07:54 AM
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@velocentrik, @Dan Burkhart has a video of his cable pull measuring tool he built. He attached a vernier caliper to the gear cable.
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Old 07-15-17, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by velocentrik View Post
I'm curious what the 8-sp Sachs branded Ergolevers pull in terms of cable and what the spec on the rear cog pitch is for 8 speed Sachs ARIS cassettes and freewheels. Why?
I have 2 sets of Sachs Ergolevers with matching New Success derailleurs. They are functionally equivalent to Campagnolo 8-speed shifters. That is, if you use these levers with Campagnolo derailleurs it works 100%. Or if you use a Sachs New Success rear derailleur with Campagnolo shifters it also works perfectly. Based on this, I believe that the shift disks in Sachs and Campagnolo shifters are identical.

I have tried Sachs shifters with 8 and 9-speed era Shimano derailleurs. Complete mismatch - the indexing is not even close. The Shimano derailleurs way overshift.

Sachs made 2 different 8-speed freewheels, one with black, and one with brown spacers. One for Shimano (4.8mm) spacing, and one with Campagnolo (5.0mm) spacing. I can't remember which is which. Given that this spacing is so close, you should be able to run them interchangeably.
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Old 07-15-17, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
@velocentrik, @Dan Burkhart has a video of his cable pull measuring tool he built. He attached a vernier caliper to the gear cable.

I went and found the video.
The plan was to create a data base of cross compatible shifters for IGH compatible combos, but so far all I've been able to demonstrate is that any I've tested do not work for anything other than their intended application.


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Old 07-16-17, 12:56 PM
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That's certainly looks more professional than my method - which is a piece of colored tape on the cable and measuring the gap between it and the cable stop. I'd be interested in seeing the pull between a Tiagra 4700 10 spd and a Campy 10 spd as this combo assumes they match but an accurate measurement would confirm this.
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Old 07-16-17, 08:58 PM
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Old Klein catalog shows OEM spec'd Klein Navigator with Shimano triple front derailleur, XT rear derailleur and Sachs New Success ethos.

Intrtesting.
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Old 07-17-17, 06:31 PM
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What about dura ace 7400 derailleurs? Can they fit in anywhere?
There are plenty of them out there in good condition and cheap.
Sorry but I don't have the parts bin to try it myself.
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Old 07-18-17, 08:37 AM
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The chart I embedded above (which was taken from some of the linked sites) shows old durace and you can see some of the combos that it can work in but it does not appear to be particularly useful.
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Old 07-18-17, 10:58 AM
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@bluehills3149 my heart just skipped a few beats -- Shimano has an 11-28 10sp cassette, Campy does not. That is my happy land.
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Old 07-18-17, 11:29 AM
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Dura Ace 7400 rear derailleurs have a mechanical advantage of 1.8:1, same as the first generation of Suntour Accushift. So 7400 drivetrains will be even more sensitive to dirt/contamination/misadjustments than any current system. Not particularly useful.

Shimano realized this early, when they went to a 1.67:1 mechanical advantage. With Shimano 11 speed, they've gone further to 1.4:1, now in line with old Campagnolo.
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Old 07-20-17, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by velocentrik View Post
I'm curious what the 8-sp Sachs branded Ergolevers pull in terms of cable and what the spec on the rear cog pitch is for 8 speed Sachs ARIS cassettes and freewheels. Why?

Because the pulley in the Sachs branded ergolever probably almost exactly opens up a whole new bag of worms. Especially considering you can replace the index disc and the pulley separately, right?

So I'm curious what one could do with those bits.
I think @Dfrost has a stockpile of Sachs components, ergo levers and New Success rear derailleurs. He says he has one set of levers that work best with a Campy-spaced cassette and another set that work best with a Shimano-spaced cassette. I don't know if he's tried swapping the derailleurs around. According to Sheldon Brown's crib sheet 1997 Sachs cassettes had Campy spacing while 1998 and later had Shimano spacing, so I would guess that the cable pull of the levers changed after 1997. If I were a betting man I'd bet that the New Success rear derailleurs had a 1.4 ratio, although that would suggest that the 1998 Sachs levers anticipated the cable pull of the 2001 Campy nine speed levers. Hmmmm....

Now I want a New Success rear derailleur even more than I already had.
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Old 07-20-17, 01:49 PM
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The reason why Sachs Ergo levers don't work with Shimano rear derailleurs has nothing to do with cog spacing. It is because the design of the Sachs New Success rear derailleur is fundamentally different than a Shimano derailleur in terms of mechanical advantage.Sachs New Success, or at least the 2 that I have, have a mechanical advantage of 1.43:1. Shimano from that era are 1.67:1.
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Old 07-20-17, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
I think @Dfrost has a stockpile of Sachs components, ergo levers and New Success rear derailleurs. He says he has one set of levers that work best with a Campy-spaced cassette and another set that work best with a Shimano-spaced cassette. I don't know if he's tried swapping the derailleurs around. According to Sheldon Brown's crib sheet 1997 Sachs cassettes had Campy spacing while 1998 and later had Shimano spacing, so I would guess that the cable pull of the levers changed after 1997. If I were a betting man I'd bet that the New Success rear derailleurs had a 1.4 ratio, although that would suggest that the 1998 Sachs levers anticipated the cable pull of the 2001 Campy nine speed levers. Hmmmm....

Now I want a New Success rear derailleur even more than I already had.
All my RD's are Sachs New Success. I have some short cage versions, but these days I only use the medium cage, of which I've got a bunch, as @Andy_K mentions. I did try using a Shimano Deore XT RD once, but indexing didn't work, as @Dave Mayer says. BTW, I have all these extra Sachs RD's to use when the old ones wear out. But I haven't worn one out yet! The example on my most used bike these days has over 8K miles, and when I first started using Sachs NS, I used the same RD for over 15K!

As near as I can tell without doing a formal test (and I am a former aerospace test engineer, so might just have to do this one!) all the RD's have the same pull ratio. The difference seems to be in the ergo levers. BTW, I tried a Campy 9-spd pulley in a Sachs lever once years ago, with Shimano 9-speed cog spacers in the cassette. Didn't work well.

Andy, send me a PM, email or text.
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Old 07-20-17, 02:38 PM
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I see nothing exciting about learning that old RDs that are no longer made will work with something newer, or vice-versa. The smartest thing you can do is upgrade to the latest parts when you're able to and move on. Campy 11 speed came out back in 2009. I changed all my bikes to 11 speed shortly thereafter. The only reason I have an older 10 speed Campy RD coupled to an 11 speed shifter, is I quite cycling at the end of 2010 and the bike's been sitting since then. I found a simple mod that allows the Campy 10 RD to work with an 11 speed Campy shifter. I rode several thousand miles with that combination. The bike now works nicely, mounted on a hydraulic resistance trainer, to use for knee replacement rehab. I get the other knee done in November, and it will continue on with valuable rehab service.

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Old 07-20-17, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dfrost View Post
BTW, I tried a Campy 9-spd pulley in a Sachs lever once years ago, with Shimano 9-speed cog spacers in the cassette. Didn't work well.
Do you happen to know if the pulley was "old" Campy 9-speed or "new" Campy 9-speed? If it was "new" then my theory about the Sachs RD ratio might be wrong and they just have some entirely different cable pull combination.
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Old 07-20-17, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
I see nothing exciting about learning that old RDs that are no longer made will work with something newer, or vice-versa. The smartest thing you can do is upgrade to the latest parts when you're able to and move on.
I guess everyone has their own reasons for being excited about things. For me, there are a couple of things about this that are exciting. Mostly they boil down to variations on the fact that (a) I like Campy shifters, and (b) I prefer Shimano hubs and cassettes. So any way to make these work together is a win in my book.

A lot of people like pre-2008 Campy shifters because they are serviceable, so you don't have to throw them away and buy something new. You can fix them when they stop working. That's nice.

I particularly like the Campy shifters that have micro-ratcheting for the front derailleur. This works better than indexing with a triple crankset. It lets you put the front derailleur where you want it, as opposed to putting it relatively near where you want it. Sure, bar end shifters and downtube shifters do this even better, but I like indexed rear shifting at the lever and I don't like mixing and matching levers.

The other thing here that makes upgrading to the latest parts a suboptimal solution for me is that I like vintage frames and most new parts look awful on old steel frames. So yeah, I was very excited that I was able to get 15-year old shifters and 18-year old derailleurs to work perfectly with a brand new wheel and cassette on my 45-year old frame.
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Old 07-20-17, 04:13 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149 View Post
........Well, as I re-read the blog.artscyclery.com I almost fell of my chair with excitement. You know the eager kid and the back of the classroom with his hand in the air, grunting to get attention so he can shout out the answer? Well, that’s how I felt as I read any Shimano 11 spd (or Tiagra 4700 10spd) rear derailleur has a pull ratio of 1.4:1 as that is the golden ratio required to enable a 10 spd campy lever to use all Shimano rear parts. And all the info was right there but no-one seems to have joined the dots and as far as I can tell, nobody has published anything on this combination.
And it gets better as this combination should also work with 9spd ie Campy 9spd shifters with Shimano 9 spd der and cassette although this I have not tried yet. It also means a Tiagra 4700 shifter “should” pull the same cable as a campy 10 spd shifter and they are basically interchangeable.
The attached table (copied from the wikibooks site) shows what works where I substituted “Shimano 11spd” for “Old campy”as they both have a 1.4 ratio......

Good find. Another rear derailleur that allows campy 10 shifters to run Shimano 10 cassettes is SRAM Apex or Rival
"Exact Acuation" Have run it on our tandems for many thousands of miles. I would say it is not a perfect match but a good one.
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Old 07-20-17, 04:19 PM
  #25  
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When ultrashift first came out you could get repair parts, but that didn't last long because there is simply not much to wear out.

I rode Campy 10 speed triples for many years. As I remember there was no micro ratcheting. There was a position for each chain ring and the ability to trim the derailleur to the right. I later switched to a compact double crank with Campy 11. I'm still using my old 10 speed medium cage RD with 10 speed ultrashift levers, converted to 11 speed with two parts from a wreck damaged 11 speed lever. In the early days of ultrashift the Centaur 10 speed levers came with carbon fiber brake lever, just like Record, but labeled as Centaur.
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