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Why are my tubeless tires fused to the rim?

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Why are my tubeless tires fused to the rim?

Old 08-03-17, 05:29 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
You had a tire weld itself to a rim. There are three possible culprits: the tire, the rim, or the sealant. The odds of it being the sealant are EXTREMELY remote. So you're left with the tire or the rim. Which would you rather it be?
It could very well have been the soap he used. Rims are aluminum and typically anodized. What's a homebrew method to strip anodized off aluminum? Lye. What's in soap? Lye. It's quite possible that the soap he used got trapped in between the bead and rim where it was literally sealed in air tight, because that's what tubeless rims and tires are designed to do. Over time it ate away at the aluminum anodizing and the byproduct of that (not sure exactly what it is but I know there is a strong chemical reaction that happens between aluminum and lye) caused the rubber to fuse to the rim.

Of course, I'm just speculating and I'll end this by saying that I have no personal experience with tubeless tires so probably shouldn't be in this thread anyway
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Old 08-03-17, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
It could very well have been the soap he used. Rims are aluminum and typically anodized. What's a homebrew method to strip anodized off aluminum? Lye. What's in soap? Lye. It's quite possible that the soap he used got trapped in between the bead and rim where it was literally sealed in air tight, because that's what tubeless rims and tires are designed to do. Over time it ate away at the aluminum anodizing and the byproduct of that (not sure exactly what it is but I know there is a strong chemical reaction that happens between aluminum and lye) caused the rubber to fuse to the rim.

Of course, I'm just speculating and I'll end this by saying that I have no personal experience with tubeless tires so probably shouldn't be in this thread anyway
Lye -- sodium hydroxide -- is not used in most commonly available household liquid detergents or soaps. Strong bases may damage anodizing but most common household liquid dish detergents and body soaps aren't strong enough to damage anodizing. Some cleansers intended for cleaning porcelain in kitchens, bathrooms, tile, etc., might be strong enough. But the OP mentioned dish soap (assuming hand washing liquid, not machine dishwasher detergent), which probably doesn't contain sodium hydroxide or a strong enough alkali to do any harm.
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Old 08-03-17, 02:55 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Lye -- sodium hydroxide -- is not used in most commonly available household liquid detergents or soaps. Strong bases may damage anodizing but most common household liquid dish detergents and body soaps aren't strong enough to damage anodizing. Some cleansers intended for cleaning porcelain in kitchens, bathrooms, tile, etc., might be strong enough. But the OP mentioned dish soap (assuming hand washing liquid, not machine dishwasher detergent), which probably doesn't contain sodium hydroxide or a strong enough alkali to do any harm.
Sure, normal soap won't do any immediate damage but leave it there for a few months perhaps in contact with some bare aluminum and it might.
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Old 08-03-17, 05:09 PM
  #29  
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When my tires were locked on to the beads of my rims, it was less than two days after mounting and the rims were carbon; the mental gymnastics regarding chemical reactions fusing this to that just aren't necessary.
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Old 08-03-17, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
When my tires were locked on to the beads of my rims, it was less than two days after mounting and the rims were carbon; the mental gymnastics regarding chemical reactions fusing this to that just aren't necessary.
'Fused' as in they left bits of rubber in the groove in the rim after ripping out the beads or didn't come out at all (trashed the rims) or 'fused' as in stuck in there really tight but came out cleanly with tools?

I'm just trying to understand the severity of the problem.
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Old 08-03-17, 08:39 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
'Fused' as in they left bits of rubber in the groove in the rim after ripping out the beads or didn't come out at all (trashed the rims) or 'fused' as in stuck in there really tight but came out cleanly with tools?

I'm just trying to understand the severity of the problem.
"Fused" wasn't my word - that was the OP's. Regardless, mine were locked in just as tightly - you couldn't wedge a tire lever between the tire and the rim; pulling and twisting with clamps, pliers, etc was equally useless. In the end, I broke the bead free with the technique I'd previously mentioned and everything was fine and dandy afterwards. You know how you sometimes get that one mighty *SNAP* when you seat the tires? This is just working backwards and sometimes that snap is pretty damn tough.
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Old 08-04-17, 04:46 PM
  #32  
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Likely the tire had an undersized bead on one side. Manufacturing variation exists in all things. This is why it was so hard to install (compressor and soap is a LOT of force for installation).

Not surprised that it was very hard to pull back off, duplicating the install forces with hand tools would be tough.
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Old 08-05-17, 09:17 AM
  #33  
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I've been using tubeless tires since 2011 (road and Mtn) with Stan's sealant in road tires and Caffe-latex in mtn tires. The beads get a little sticky, but always come off by hand.
Every year I remove the tires, and clean both rim and tires thoroughly regardless whether they need to be changed or not. Maybe, not removing the tires from the rim for a long period affects the stickiness to the rim, and the type of sealant might have an effect also. I have observed that the residue from Stan's sealant is "gummy" and hard to remove from the rim even after a year.
I've torn a few tubeless road tires, and had to install a tube. It takes longer than a standard tube change, but the benefit of not getting flats outweighs the slight delay.
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Old 08-05-17, 11:11 AM
  #34  
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The time factor is something I had not taken into consideration-- I have to refresh sealant frequently here as it never really gets cold, so I have the tires off of the rims every six weeks at the most. Combine with that my mileage load, where a tire seldom lasts more than 12 weeks, and I have no chance of a tire fusing to the rim.
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Old 08-05-17, 11:26 AM
  #35  
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Didn't Mavic come up with a better tubeless solution? Opinions?
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Old 08-05-17, 02:40 PM
  #36  
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For the record, it stuck the first day I mounted the tire but rode it anyway.


Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
There are three possible culprits: the tire, the rim, or the sealant.
And the lubricant used to help the bead seat. I used lots of soap mixed with water and feel that excess soap might be the issue. That's what I'm trying to find out here, if anyone has had the same problem or if soap can act as a glue.

I appreciate that you clarified why you dislike the Scwalbe tires. It means a lot to me and is something I'll look out for as I move forward.



Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
It could very well have been the soap he used.
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Lye -- sodium hydroxide -- is not used in most commonly available household liquid detergents or soaps.
Really appreciate the conversation here. Even if it isn't the root cause, I still appreciate you guys talking it through as a means to get to an answer.


Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
'Fused' as in they left bits of rubber in the groove in the rim after ripping out the beads or didn't come out at all (trashed the rims) or 'fused' as in stuck in there really tight but came out cleanly with tools?

I'm just trying to understand the severity of the problem.
Stuck. The rim is fine. Once I cut through the bead with a razor knife and got a small section of it to unseat from the rim it popped off just like the other three beads.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 08-05-17 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 08-05-17, 04:25 PM
  #37  
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Man, I've only run Schwalbe (One, Pro One, and S-One) on American Classic rims (Argent and Victory30) and not only never had such a problem, but don't even get bead locking, in the sense that sufficiently rapid deflation will pop the beads, and even slow leak-down, such as during winter storage, will result in popped beads.

It's something kind of hard to imagine, such stubbornly locked beads, but hey, this is the problem with a lack of standards and the main reason I'm delighted by Mavic's Road UST system. I mean, I love Argent/P1 combo from a performance standpoint, but I could do without the install futzing and don't want to roll the dice when I switch tire brand and/or model. Hell, I don't even want to roll the dice when replacing the same model; so far so good, but look at what we're talking about here...
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Old 08-05-17, 04:32 PM
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I'm also wondering whether it might be something unique to Schwalbe -- a mold release or some other manufacturing byproduct. I noticed while mounting the Schwalbe One V-Guards last month there was a slightly tacky residue on the entire external surface, from the bead to the contact surface (there's no "tread" since it's a slick -- is that still the "tread"?).

With a little effort I could rub it off with my thumb -- came off kinda like dried rubber cement. But I just rode the tires as-is. They felt just a bit squirrely on fast turns the first couple of rides but broke in nicely.

Maybe some of that whatever-it-is residue, combined with sealant, contributed to the bead sticking to the rims.

I need to remove my Schwalbes soon to replace the old rim strips so I'll keep in mind WhyFi's trick, although I'm not running tubeless so I may not even encounter the problem.
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Old 08-05-17, 08:50 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
It wasn't fused - it was mechanically locked in place. I've had the same thing happen without sealant. Almost cut it off, too, but finally figured it out. Next time, stand up, stand the wheel in front of you and, alternating with both hands, start rolling/twisting the tire carcass away from you/over the opposite edge of the rim. Wear gloves (or it'll be Blister City), use your upper body weight and use the heels of your palm when twisting. It may take 10-15 seconds, but it'll crack free.

This is probably the 5th or 6th time I've explained this online - I really should make a video, but then I'd have to re-seat the damn things.

I just noticed this post. Thank you.


-Tim-
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Old 08-06-17, 09:56 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I just noticed this post. Thank you.


-Tim-
No problem. I was really questioning the viability of tubeless roadside repairs after my experience, too, so finding a technique that works was a huge relief ('cause I really didn't want to give up my tubeless!); hopefully this'll get some people out of a pinch with an otherwise great system.
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Old 08-06-17, 06:02 PM
  #41  
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I'll derail the post a little... What's your opinion of the G-One Allround's? I take it you like them as you're going to a wider set but how durable are they? I've heard mixed reviews and that gravel tends to cut them up. I've been running Voyager Hypers but am kicking around a tubeless setup and the G-One Allrounds are at the top of my list. I at least know to go light on the soap if I go with them now.
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Old 08-06-17, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by edthesped View Post
I'll derail the post a little... What's your opinion of the G-One Allround's? I take it you like them as you're going to a wider set but how durable are they? I've heard mixed reviews and that gravel tends to cut them up. I've been running Voyager Hypers but am kicking around a tubeless setup and the G-One Allrounds are at the top of my list. I at least know to go light on the soap if I go with them now.
They are amazing on anything smooth - smooth packed dirt, smooth gravel, even cross country running trails. They ride like a high end road tire. not great in loose conditions or rocky/rooted surfaces.

They wear fast. I also think I got one with a broken bead. It inflates all crooked in one spot and blew off the rim @ 70 PSI when trying to seat the beads.

They roll fast and I love the way they ride so have ordered another and am trying to return this one. I won't stand for another defect however and am looking for fast rolling alternatives at this point.

-Tim-
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Old 08-06-17, 08:42 PM
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Panaracer Gravelking SK 700x35 should be comparable, and in the same ballpark price-wise from what I've seen. I have just 530 (mostly road) miles on mine over about 2 weeks and they're wearing evenly on the rear and show no wear yet on the front. At what pressures are you running your G-Ones? I've been consistently 57psi F/R and the SKs are pretty great on every surface.

With how cheap the G-Ones are from European sellers, the only thing terrifying about them is the fact that Schwalbe themselves give them 3/5 bars for durability, while the One/Pro One get 4/5 bars, and those last less than 1,000 miles under optimum conditions. Schwalbe makes a comfy, grippy tire-- the Ones were definitely that-- but their reliability/durability was absolutely horrible.

I've all but given up on any manufacturer putting out a tubeless road tire that manages to combine affordability with durability, so I'm left now to looking at gravel tires. Even Maxxis calls the ReFuse TR a gravel tire, and it barely has a file tread on it. The Non-SK Gravelking would be great in tubeless (comes in more widths,) but only exists in the 27.5... and my 700c rims are basically new.
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Old 08-07-17, 07:36 AM
  #44  
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A bit of searching and for $25 each at planetx I think I'll give the Terrene Elwood's a go... Now to figure out if I should go for "tough" or "light", my mind says tough but my heart says light.
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Old 08-07-17, 07:48 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
With how cheap the G-Ones are from European sellers, the only thing terrifying about them is the fact that Schwalbe themselves give them 3/5 bars for durability, while the One/Pro One get 4/5 bars, and those last less than 1,000 miles under optimum conditions. Schwalbe makes a comfy, grippy tire-- the Ones were definitely that-- but their reliability/durability was absolutely horrible.
I'm surprised that they rate the G-One Speed at 2/5 for Service Life - I had a bead/sidewall problem with my first rear tire, but it had 1500+ miles on it (98% pavement) and it still had a good bit of tread left, probably another 1000+ more. The replacement now has close to 700 miles and the micro-nubs are all still clearly defined.
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Old 08-07-17, 11:30 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
the contact surface (there's no "tread" since it's a slick -- is that still the "tread"?).
Yep, the "tread" is just the part of the tire that contacts the road, whether it's patterned or slick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tread
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Old 08-07-17, 02:24 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Panaracer Gravelking SK 700x35 should be comparable, and in the same ballpark price-wise from what I've seen. I have just 530 (mostly road) miles on mine over about 2 weeks and they're wearing evenly on the rear and show no wear yet on the front. At what pressures are you running your G-Ones? I've been consistently 57psi F/R and the SKs are pretty great on every surface.

With how cheap the G-Ones are from European sellers, the only thing terrifying about them is the fact that Schwalbe themselves give them 3/5 bars for durability, while the One/Pro One get 4/5 bars, and those last less than 1,000 miles under optimum conditions. Schwalbe makes a comfy, grippy tire-- the Ones were definitely that-- but their reliability/durability was absolutely horrible.

I've all but given up on any manufacturer putting out a tubeless road tire that manages to combine affordability with durability, so I'm left now to looking at gravel tires. Even Maxxis calls the ReFuse TR a gravel tire, and it barely has a file tread on it. The Non-SK Gravelking would be great in tubeless (comes in more widths,) but only exists in the 27.5... and my 700c rims are basically new.

Appreciate this post very much.

The Gravelking SK are highly regarded at Gravelcyclist.com but I wonder about pavement. The G-One's are silky smooth on pavement, and fast, and I'd like to know how the two compare.


Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I'm surprised that they rate the G-One Speed at 2/5 for Service Life - I had a bead/sidewall problem with my first rear tire, but it had 1500+ miles on it (98% pavement) and it still had a good bit of tread left, probably another 1000+ more. The replacement now has close to 700 miles and the micro-nubs are all still clearly defined.

800 miles on the G-One Evolution Allaround and the micro knobbies on the rear tire are about 85% gone. About 70% paved.


-Tim-
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Old 08-08-17, 07:28 AM
  #48  
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I've used skinnystripper.com wheel liners with my tubeless setups. This keeps the sealant off of the wheel, prevents burping, and actually creates a tubular tire out of a tubeless tire.

I don't know if it would fix your problem (if it was sealant related, it would), but it is a cheap solution.
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Old 08-10-17, 03:28 PM
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I've mentioned it in another thread or two around here, but I just had the opposite problem of a bead sticking, and got my first burp-- during a panic stop, all I can figure is the tire stopped and the rim kept going a tiny bit, because it went dead flat instantly. Foolishly pumped it back up only to have it go dead flat again after 200 yards or so. It's not like a popped beat is going to reseat with the pressure provided by a Lezyne micro pump. For my first time ever, I had to throw in a tube and ride the 35 miles to the LBS on about 35psi in the front. It rode surprisingly well.

And this was 200% my fault, because I had just rotated the tires front to rear, and didn't think to use soap, as it wasn't a "fresh" mounting. Perused some ancient MTBR threads after searching for "burping tires while braking," and found some dudes from back when all tubeless was ghetto tubeless, and one had suggested using latex mold builder for "tire prep fluid." I just happen to have a big jar of it, so I remounted that burped tire with the mold builder, and it seems to have mounted as well as I've ever had a tubeless tire mount. Definitely seated at a lower pressure. A bit messy, but as it's just latex, once dry it just wipes off.

Overkill maybe. But a burped tire 40 miles from your house makes you consider any available options.
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Old 08-11-17, 02:40 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by chemtrailsnifer View Post
You're doing it wrong if you have to take the tires off to add sealant.
How do you pull the boogers out and check for embedded glass/thorns/wire if you don't break at least one bead? Or do you just dump sealant in every once and awhile until the tire wears out? That's how MTB'ers do it, so they can end up with cucumber-sized Stan's Monsters.
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