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Why are my tubeless tires fused to the rim?

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Why are my tubeless tires fused to the rim?

Old 07-31-17, 07:52 PM
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TimothyH
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Why are my tubeless tires fused to the rim?

Trying to install new tires and could not get one of them off. One of the beads was fused to the rim. The tire had to be cut off with a razor knife. Three beads popped off but the fourth was completely stuck. Pushed, pulled, sweat, cursed, yanked them with a pair of Channel Lock pliers and no dice.

To be clear, I'm not talking about getting the bead onto or off of the rim, nor am I talking about seating the bead. The bead of the tire would not separate from the rim.

They were installed this past April using dish soap and water as a lubricant and Orange Seal Endurance sealant. American Classic MTB Race 29er wheels with Schwalbe G-One Allaround tires if it matters.

More important than why is how I prevent it in the future so that I can service the tires in the field if needed.


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Last edited by TimothyH; 07-31-17 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 07-31-17, 11:36 PM
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chemical reaction... still think those tubeless tires are a good choice?

imagine dealing with your present hassle in the middle of nowhere... at night.... after having a routine flat tire...... and you're wearing super stiff road style riding shoes with cleats....

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Old 07-31-17, 11:41 PM
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Mine form a very tight seal even without the sealant (I put tubes in them). But they did come off. The sealant probably is responsible for the adhesion. I decided to avoid going tubeless so I could change tires whenever I felt like it (since I only have two wheelsets).
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Old 08-01-17, 04:13 AM
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Apparently, some wheel/tubeless tire combinations work better than others. I have a set of Hed Ardennes + wheels and the first set of tires I mounted on them were Specialized S-Works Tubeless. I messed up the sidewall on one of them and found that I couldn't break the bead loose with my (then) 64-year-old hands, had to get a young, strong friend to do it for me. Even standard clinchers "pop" when mounted on those rims and take extra work to break the bead loose, but I can get them off. OTOH, I have a set of Ultegra 6800 wheels with IRC Roadlite tubeless tires and have had no problem breaking the bead loose on that combination. When the IRCs wear out, I'm going to try a set of Specialized Roubaix Tubeless on the Ultegra wheels.
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Old 08-01-17, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Mine form a very tight seal even without the sealant (I put tubes in them). But they did come off. The sealant probably is responsible for the adhesion. I decided to avoid going tubeless so I could change tires whenever I felt like it (since I only have two wheelsets).
I've a friend in the same boat. For some reason his tire and rim combination is beyond tight. We about lost our minds the other day when removing the tires in order to replace some spoke nipples. Fluke combination, I guess.
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Old 08-01-17, 12:08 PM
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Ugh, that's crazy. Next time don't use soap and water. I didn't need to with my AC Races. But I have no idea if that's the cause, it's just something different than what I did (I didn't use anything btw).
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Old 08-01-17, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
I've a friend in the same boat. For some reason his tire and rim combination is beyond tight. We about lost our minds the other day when removing the tires in order to replace some spoke nipples. Fluke combination, I guess.
Couldn't get the bead over the rim edge or the bead fused to the rim?


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Old 08-01-17, 12:31 PM
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Used a compressor and the bead would not seat until something slippery was applied. I had to use something and dish soap and water was what most people suggest so that's what I did out of ignorance. It was my first time with tubeless tires.

Just ordered a can of Sleek Beeswax & Mink Oil Furniture Polish as per gravelcyclist.com.
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Old 08-01-17, 12:51 PM
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another option is Schwalbe Easy Fit Tire Mounting Fluid - have a bottle but have not tried it yet.
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Old 08-01-17, 01:57 PM
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My first change would be the sealant. As far as a chemical reaction happening, I'd love to hear an explanation. I use home brew sealant, costs less than 20 bucks to make a half gallon, which lasts at least two seasons and has never permanently bonded my tire to the rim. PM me if you'd like the recipe(which I got off the famed homebrew thread on mtbr)
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Old 08-01-17, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Used a compressor and the bead would not seat until something slippery was applied.
It must be the tire then. What are the new tires you are putting on?
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Old 08-01-17, 03:53 PM
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I don't understand how one bead had a chemical reaction fusing the tire to the rim while the bead 24 mm away on the same tire/rim did not.

Not saying it didn't happen. Just saying I don't understand and would also love to hear an explanation.



Originally Posted by shoota View Post
It must be the tire then. What are the new tires you are putting on?
Took off 35 mm Schwalbe G-One Allaround and putting on the same but 38 mm size.




Originally Posted by motorthings View Post
another option is Schwalbe Easy Fit Tire Mounting Fluid - have a bottle but have not tried it yet.
Thanks for this. I ordered a can and will report back.



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Old 08-01-17, 04:58 PM
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Probably just one of those things. Just a very tight bead. Like a car tire, they are supposed to lock in and be difficult to separate. I've got a set that I need to setup tubeless cause I know I'd never get the beads off to fix a tube on the side of the trail.
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Old 08-01-17, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I don't understand how one bead had a chemical reaction fusing the tire to the rim while the bead 24 mm away on the same tire/rim did not.
I honestly have no idea either, very strange.
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Old 08-01-17, 07:39 PM
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Unknown, so far:

-What kind of tape did you use for the rim?
--sub question: how much did you use?

Stans tape works fine with a single wrap for pressures around 90-100PSI (narrow tire) or 40-60 (wide-ish 40mm tire)...albeit, with a good amount of sagging over the spoke holes. The game is, how much do you need for a secure fit on the rim, versus an easily removed/installed tire. Not that this particularly helps you, but rims that adhere to the UST specification tend to be easier to mount/dismount tires from...the catch 22 is that the deep well that makes mounting/dismounting easier, also makes inflating/seating the beads harder without a compressor.

Tubeless tires can be a bear to remove from a rim if, say, you use too much tape (the rim seat is built up) and/or the tire's bead is slightly small for spec.

*edit* some food for thought: if you have to use anything other than the sealant as a lubricant to mount the tire, you should immediately become aware that removing the tire may need tools. In an emergency, you may be able to lay the wheel down, rim on the ground, and step on the bead to separate it.
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Old 08-01-17, 07:56 PM
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Tens of thousands of miles with tubeless, every single tire mounted with soapy water, never had a problem with a tire sticking. Three different rims, three different tires. Maybe an instance of too much soap? I use about 4oz of water in a small bowl with a single drop of Dawn dish soap in it. But in my guessing, it's either the rim, the tire, or some the combination of the two. My wholly subjective and jaded opinion would be to say it's the Schwalbes, because in my admittedly limited experience (less than 4,000 miles) their tubeless tires are garbage.

And for what feels like the millionth time, please, PLEASE, those without firsthand tubeless experience, please see yourselves out. You LITERALLY do not know what you're talking about. Experiencing a flat on tubeless is so exceptionally rare that worrying over it is a fruitless exercise. I've had to add air to a puncture ONCE... in well over 15,000 miles. I rotate the old emergency tube out of the saddlebag by giving it to people in need-- I've never needed it for myself, and very likely never will.
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Old 08-02-17, 06:38 AM
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heh, you just jinxed yourself, now there is a piece of sharp metal out there with your name on it. Which reminds me, I need to put some boot material in my saddlebag.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by wschruba View Post
Unknown, so far:

-What kind of tape did you use for the rim?
--sub question: how much did you use?
Brand new American Classic wheels with the tape that came on it.


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Old 08-02-17, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Maybe an instance of too much soap?
Followed you up to here and think this might have been the reason, at least in part, but...

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
because in my admittedly limited experience (less than 4,000 miles) their tubeless tires are garbage.
...I've little patience for unqualified blanket statements and you lost me here.



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Old 08-02-17, 08:25 AM
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To Keep the Air in?

Fresher rubber will be stickier , than if it ages , so if you find a tire you like , get several and set them aside for a year or so,
before using them .
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Old 08-02-17, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Followed you up to here and think this might have been the reason, at least in part, but...



...I've little patience for unqualified blanket statements and you lost me here.



-Tim-
It is absolutely not unqualified-- I suffered through almost 5 months with the Schwalbe Ones, and they are unquestionably garbage. The first tire I ran on the front had visible ozone cracking and tread starting to peel/flake after less than 6 weeks. The notion that any of the "new" Ones would be some radically dramatic departure from the original Ones would be one of tragically misplaced optimism. The Maxxis ReFuse TR upon which I've ridden thousands upon thousands of miles are imperfect at best, but to even mention them in the same sentence with the Schwalbes is an insult to the Maxxis.

You had a tire weld itself to a rim. There are three possible culprits: the tire, the rim, or the sealant. The odds of it being the sealant are EXTREMELY remote. So you're left with the tire or the rim. Which would you rather it be?
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Old 08-02-17, 01:45 PM
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I'd be curious about the Orange Seal. I checked but couldn't find an MSDS, although it might not contain info on anything they consider proprietary or a trade secret. A common solvent for latex is ammonia. I'd wonder whether that might react badly with tires over time in some conditions. Contact the folks at Orange Seal and see what they say.

I remember Doc I mentioning that reservation about the Schwalbe Ones a few months ago. But when Jenson USA blew out the 700x23 and 28 Ones (V-Guard, if that matters) for cheap I went ahead and too the chance. At only $15 each for the 23s ($20 for the 700x28) it's a good risk. Only had 'em on for two weeks. Good rolling tires, much nicer than the Vittoria Zaffiros they replaced. So far, so good, but I'm keeping a close eye on 'em.

I noticed the batch Jenson sent were unpackaged, which they specified on their website, so no surprises or disappointments. I'm guessing they're NOS from 2014 or so when the One was introduced. Maybe Doc I's were from a bad batch?

A friend has been burning up the roads this year on his steel gravel bike with the Schwalbe Big Ones, including RAGBRAI this summer. He loves 'em. And I think he's running tubeless.

I was tempted to snag a pair of Big Ones from Jenson when they blew 'em out (pardon the expression) for $15 each for the 29er version last November, but those wouldn't clear the front derailer on my mountain bike unless I switched to a single chain ring, and I'd need a different set of rims.
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Old 08-02-17, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by frankenmike View Post
My first change would be the sealant. As far as a chemical reaction happening, I'd love to hear an explanation. I use home brew sealant, costs less than 20 bucks to make a half gallon, which lasts at least two seasons and has never permanently bonded my tire to the rim. PM me if you'd like the recipe(which I got off the famed homebrew thread on mtbr)
Planning on making some homebrew soon, will PM...
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Old 08-02-17, 03:25 PM
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It wasn't fused - it was mechanically locked in place. I've had the same thing happen without sealant. Almost cut it off, too, but finally figured it out. Next time, stand up, stand the wheel in front of you and, alternating with both hands, start rolling/twisting the tire carcass away from you/over the opposite edge of the rim. Wear gloves (or it'll be Blister City), use your upper body weight and use the heels of your palm when twisting. It may take 10-15 seconds, but it'll crack free.

This is probably the 5th or 6th time I've explained this online - I really should make a video, but then I'd have to re-seat the damn things.
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Old 08-02-17, 03:39 PM
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Oh, and FWIW, this technique hasn't failed me since, including one flat in the field (totally my fault - I was lazy about checking my fluid and it was too old/not enough to seal). I'm also using Orange Seal and Schwalbe G-One/S-One tires, too.
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