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The People’s Liberation Drivetrains

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The People’s Liberation Drivetrains

Old 08-31-17, 02:22 PM
  #26  
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What is so special on that people's 1x? Am i missing something? anyone can take any type of cassette and a single chainring. The idea proposed there isn't' special and there are dozen other hardware parts to accomplish the same.

I like 1x, and for just casual bikers it would be sufficient (and simpler to use). i also think a 1x11 is great for an MTB, fatbike etc. Especially off-road (fast changes between steep up and down) the faster shifting in the rear helps. And the maximum speed is slow anyway and the range sufficient.

But for a road bike or hybrid I would be cautious. I have a 2x10 hybrid and observed myself and concluded i use it as a 1x10 most of the time. All straight and slight slopes it is large chainring used as 1x10. All steeper climbs and offroad it is small chainring used as 1x10. So yes i need more range than 1x11 could give me. And on long tours it also may be beneficial to have an FD. If your rear cable breaks, you could get home using it as a 2x1.

Obviously reasonable people could disagree and have other preferences. I'm just stating what works for me, i don't try to impose this should work for you.
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Old 08-31-17, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
Obviously reasonable people could disagree and have other preferences. I'm just stating what works for me, i don't try to impose this should work for you.
Yeah that's what I don't get, some people like 1x and some don't -- but the triple brigade comes (slowly) charging in, taking it as a personal insult that anyone would dare to have a different preference.

Full disclosure -- I run doubles on everything, but I'd totally run a 1x on a bikepacking or commuter rig.
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Old 08-31-17, 04:07 PM
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The article is not very controversial. It simply offers a menu of compatible drivetrain parts which offer what the author purports to be the best/optimal combination of price, performance and durability on the market.

The notion that the article advocates 1X systems only is a bogus strawman talking point by people with poor reading comprehension or deliberately trying to stir up trouble.

Personally, I like the extra range of 2X and 3X and enjoy smooth shifting front derailleurs, so I favor multiple chainrings.
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Old 08-31-17, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
Yeah that's what I don't get, some people like 1x and some don't -- but the triple brigade comes (slowly) charging in, taking it as a personal insult that anyone would dare to have a different preference.

Full disclosure -- I run doubles on everything, but I'd totally run a 1x on a bikepacking or commuter rig.
but one always has to indoctrinate others. Because when I can talk other people into doing what I do, I feel better about my choice

I just came back from my garage tuning up a family member's Walmart 1x7 bike and think the fact they "designed" the FD out may have been the best design decision. It would have been a crappy FD anyway. And the grip shifter doesn't even show gears, it has symbols for uphill and downhill. Because the normal person riding around is just slow anyway, and doesn't understand gear ratios.

I have a 1x9 crappy MTB (former 3x9 but FD was crap and broke). Making it 1x was the best thing ever. It won't go fast, but I can still use it as tractor for a tow bike.

This spring I re-entered biking after a 15 year hiatus. I was overwhelmed with all the new stuff. Had no idea if I wanted disc or rim brakes. Obviously I looked at 3x9 bikes. But I saw the better bikes has 2x10 (looked at hybrids only). took me some thinking, but I bought the more expensive bike with 2x10 and I'm so happy I did. and i really hate front-shifting now (and i do have an expensive SRAM X7 and it is perfectly set up). I also ordered a fatbike. Was thinking of going cheap with 2x8 etc. but I figured it would annoy me to death to front-shift when having fun and made the 1x11 a main criterium. So yes, 6 months ago I was in the 3x camp (because I didn't even know there was something else). Now I'm full in 1x and 2x camp.

to each their own.
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Old 08-31-17, 05:09 PM
  #30  
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Shimano's front derailleurs always work exceptionally well in their top 2 groups road and off road. DA and Ultegra, XTR and XT. Everything below that is a crapshoot and the lower you go, the clunkier it gets.

Having said that, 4600 front shifting works well, whereas Deore can be clunky. 4600 is Shimano's 4th tier group and I believe Deore is still the 4th tier mtb group.

Deore front shifting seems clunky on the stand, just ok on road, but when I ride off road with slow speed, hi torque pedaling uphill, shifting seems very smooth and I don't have to worry about noise or the chain falling off. It's a quiet smooth shift.

With 1X, you have to give up the top 1 or 2 highest gears and the bottom 1 or 2 lowest gears and I'm not at all inclined to give those up.
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Old 08-31-17, 08:00 PM
  #31  
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possible benefits:

maybe someone wants to design a frame with really short chainstays, and the clearance between the rear wheel and seattube leaves no room from a front derailer?

or cramming oversized tires into a fat bike, and the hugely offset chainline to clear the tires means there's no room for more than 1 chainring without making the Q-factor unusable?

flatland commuter bikes, maybe you just don't need much gear range? 1x has been around on these long before it became the new marketing meme.
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Old 08-31-17, 09:38 PM
  #32  
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I have a 29+ bike equipped with 1 x 11 XT, have had it for a couple of years. I like the drivetrain so much I installed the same thing on my other mountain bike (a standard 29er), which had 3 x 10 XT on it. I've raced the 1 x 11, I've used it for my everyday mountain biking, and I've used it on the 29+ bike for bikepacking on both singletrack and hilly, dirt roads.

Through the years, I've used 7, 8, 9, and 10 speed triples on mountain bikes. All good stuff, but I'm hooked on this latest 11 speed Dynasys from Shimano in 1 x 11. I'm a fan of the simplicity of 1x, the positive feel of the shifting with the new cable pull ratio, the clutch RD, the 1x chainring that requires no chain retention device, etc. I'll use a couple of different chainring sizes, and both an 11 x 42 and 11 x 46 cassette, depending on the bike and the application.

The 1 x 11 offerings from SRAM are extremely good, too. We've sold a lot more of this in our shop, seems that most of the 1 x mountain bikes we've sold have been equipped with SRAM. I'm more a fan of Shimano drivetrains myself, but it's all good.

If 1 x isn't for you, that's okay, too. Having lots of choices is a good thing.

Last edited by well biked; 08-31-17 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 08-31-17, 10:29 PM
  #33  
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I am quite taken by the Sunrace 11-46 11-speed cassette. If you used it with a 36-38t chainring, cheap or recycled Shimano cranks, an M7000 SLX rear derailleur and an SLX or XT shifter, you could probably shave $100-$200 off the "People's Liberation Drivetrain" of the article, and it would be a good set up for a gravel bike or touring bike (with a Wolftooth Tanpan if you had drop bars) IMO.
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Old 09-01-17, 12:24 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
Yeah that's what I don't get, some people like 1x and some don't -- but the triple brigade comes (slowly) charging in, taking it as a personal insult that anyone would dare to have a different preference.

Full disclosure -- I run doubles on everything, but I'd totally run a 1x on a bikepacking or commuter rig.
Personal insult? No, not at all. What angers me is that people now-a-day are SO gullible. They buy into EVERY single marketing stunt. So instead of the bicycle companies making huge strides and coming up with decent innovations, we settle for these tiny "improvements" which do nothing but line the pockets of the higher ups at Shimano and SRAM.

I asked a simple question in my post and no one has yet to respond in a non-fanboyish manner.

What are the benefits of 1x?

More specifically, what are the benefits of 1x on a bikepacking rig?

Did someone actually answer "I like the feel of the shifters with the new cable pull ratio?" Really?

These companies are marketing to the lowest common denominator. And right now that's you guys. The market is DRIVEN by short lived trends that do nothing but muddy the market. How many freaking wheel sizes do we need? How many different WIDTHS of the SAME wheel size do we need? You guys act like 1x is something that is revolutionary... do you not realize that people have been doing 1x drivetrains for decades and you were simply too dumb to take off the other two chainrings? Do you REALLY need to be told what to do, what to buy, how much to spend? All at a premium I might add. Do you not realize what they're trying to do? "Let's introduce all these wheel sizes/drive-train options which will end up being rare, then we can charge a premium for all of the parts associated with them." Seriously, have you not seen that?

Where has the innovation of the common folk gone? You guys wait to be told which bikes to buy with all of these new technologies when in reality they're just rehashing old ideas.

There is a single thing that 1x is good for, and that's ground clearance (something no one has bothered to mention.) And honestly, if you're a decent rider, you really don't have to worry about ground clearance... (Hop over any rock big enough to hit the cranks/crankset.)

Last edited by corrado33; 09-01-17 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 09-01-17, 01:17 AM
  #35  
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I can understand why a 1x is attractive, especially with more cassette gears.

My approach has been running 7 speeds spaced for 8 to a 24/34 chainring setup. Typically I'll run almost everything in the 24t if I'm not familiar with the trail or if there is a lot of climbing or even rollers. And with only 7 speeds I can run them all with either ring, and also go from one end to the other quicker than any 1x10 or 11 if the terrain changes quickly. If the terrain is pretty mellow I'll stay in the 34t through all the cogs.

I'll never run another triple on a mountain bike.

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Old 09-01-17, 02:59 AM
  #36  
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So far, in terms of actual alternative 1x drivetrains that are cheaper than the drivetrain mentioned in the original article, without concerns about the perceived merits of 1x drivetrains, we have had:

1x9
A Blackspire Snaggletooth 32t Narrow Wide Chainring on Deore Cranks;
A Sunrace CSM990 9-speed 11-40t cassette;
A Shimano Sora medium Cage derailleur with Wolftooth Roadlink; and
An Alivio trigger shifter.
What, no clutch RD? No clutch RD; we're going to go rogue with this bad boy and break all the rules (and some tribal laws).

1x7
An 11-34 7-speed sunrace cassette
A Surly Mr Whirly crankset with 26t surly steel ring
A 9spd shimano shadow derailer
An ancient shimano xt m738 series 8spd shifter pod
A wierd 'chain-tug-with-derailer-hanger' gizmo
This is a way cool improvised drivetrain. A fat BMX converted to 1x7, sort of a homemade SE OM-Duro.

A 3x8
An 8-speed crankset with 22-32-42t chainrings
An 8-speed 12-32t cassette
Altus M310 3x8 shifters
Not 1x9, but I like its unassuming yet useful style.

1x11
A Sunrace 11-46 11-speed cassette.
A 36t or 38t chainring on cheap or recycled Shimano cranks
An M7000 SLX rear derailleur and compatible shifter
A Wolftooth Tanpan (optional)
This would be one comparatively cheap way to set up a more road or gravel focused bike with a 1x11 drivetrain cheaper than that mentioned in the originally linked-to article.

Has anyone else set up a 1x drivetrain for $450 or less? What did you use? What was the result; did it work? Are you planning such a drivetrain? How low, in terms of cost, do you think you could go? Are you now, or will you in the future, be in the posession of a 1x drivetrain that will cost less than the comparatively expensive drivetrain detailed in the article linked to in the original post?

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Old 09-01-17, 07:53 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
but the triple brigade comes (slowly) charging in, taking it as a personal insult that anyone would dare to have a different preference.
I haven't seen any insults until you showed up.

Pointing out the flaws of a gearing system is not insulting. Pointing out that this supposed "cheap" 1x system isn't cheap isn't insulting. Pointing out...which I am about to do...that spending $130 on a consumable item is, shall we say, silly isn't insulting.

The only person who has been insulting here has been you. You haven't added anything to the conversation. All you've done is stir the pot.

And the 1x crowd can't be all that fast since they have to coast on all the downhills.
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Old 09-01-17, 08:06 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post

Did someone actually answer "I like the feel of the shifters with the new cable pull ratio?" Really?
I guess that's directed at me (?), since that's pretty close to one of the things I said in my post. So, yeah....really. It's an opinion, based on experience and preference. I like the way the shifting feels with Dynasys 11, can't help it, I just do. I've used it a lot, and have used many other mountain bike drivetrains to compare it to. It's not a "mechanical" reason for someone to consider, but I don't think anyone would take it that way. I seem to be one of the few here who have actually used the stuff, and thought I would let folks know how and why I like it, among other things.

One of the big reasons 1 x drivetrains have caught on as much as they have in the OEM market is the use of "plus" sized tires. The plus concept is popular on new bikes these days. The spacing/standards (bottom bracket shell width, rear dropout spacing) tend to be "normal" on these bikes (although you could make a strong argument that plus tire sizing is the main reason Boost Spacing is here to stay). The original mtb with "plus" sized tires (3" width), the Surly Krampus, had a 73mm bottom bracket shell and 135 rear dropout spacing. The only way you could run a double crank on the bike without the chain hitting the tire would be with a special offset crankset. Once 11 speed 1x drivetrains were being made by both Shimano and SRAM, with extremely wide range cassettes, the 1 x setups made better sense for other bikes as well. They're becoming more and more affordable with trickle-down and the fact that SRAM has some nice offerings that don't require the XD driver hub (you give up the 10t cog).

SRAM started the 1x 11 thing (now they're up to 1 x 12), and one of the things they were doing with the crazy-wide cassettes is trying to provide an acceptable gear range in back and eliminate front shifting. You'd have to ask SRAM why they wanted to do that so much, I have my own opinion. Once Shimano got on board, and did it with conventional freehub bodies, 1x became much more affordable and popular. The fact that it's good for "plus" bikes was/is an incidental, at least for SRAM, who didn't really develop their XD stuff with that in mind.

Again, it's just another choice, and it seems pretty simple and obvious what it is and why people might like it, to me. It's also pretty obvious why some would not want it, and that's obviously okay, too.
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Old 09-01-17, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
Personal insult? No, not at all. What angers me is that people now-a-day are SO gullible. They buy into EVERY single marketing stunt. So instead of the bicycle companies making huge strides and coming up with decent innovations, we settle for these tiny "improvements" which do nothing but line the pockets of the higher ups at Shimano and SRAM.
I wouldn't say "angry" so much as I do a Lurch head shake when people gush about how much better 1x systems (and 2x's as well) than a triple. I Lurch shake at people struggling up a climb because they have a higher low constrained by their choice of drivetrain and I Lurch shake at people who I pass on downhills because they can't pedal at a higher speed. It's their choice and they have to live with it.

I do try to steer people towards something that will be more useful for more conditions and, yes, that means the tried and true triple.

I don't have a problem with innovation but only if that innovation is an real "improvement". 1x are great for downhiller and racers on a know course. Most people's riding is going to be like mine where they are riding up and down things they may never have ridden before. Having more choices is almost always better.
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Old 09-01-17, 09:57 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I wouldn't say "angry" so much as I do a Lurch head shake when people gush about how much better 1x systems (and 2x's as well) than a triple. I Lurch shake at people struggling up a climb because they have a higher low constrained by their choice of drivetrain and I Lurch shake at people who I pass on downhills because they can't pedal at a higher speed. It's their choice and they have to live with it.

I do try to steer people towards something that will be more useful for more conditions and, yes, that means the tried and true triple.

I don't have a problem with innovation but only if that innovation is an real "improvement". 1x are great for downhiller and racers on a know course. Most people's riding is going to be like mine where they are riding up and down things they may never have ridden before. Having more choices is almost always better.
Well said.

I'd like to see the faces of the 1x converts when they go back to a triple and say "Man, it sure is nice to have all these gears. I don't have huge gaps between my shifts anymore!"

I think for many it's a pride thing. "I'm such a good rider so I can ride without a front derailleur." When in reality they just stopped riding steep enough or fast enough stuff to need one.
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Old 09-01-17, 11:38 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
on paper, they just look horrible.
I'm not a big fan of how they look in real life, either.
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Old 09-01-17, 01:50 PM
  #42  
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"The world has been hijacked by marketing"

And then proceeds to market.
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Old 09-01-17, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by athrowawaynic View Post
"The world has been hijacked by marketing".
This thread has been hijacked by two equally boring agendas. It's okay, though, I'll stop trying to steer it back onto topic and leave you all to bicker in peace.

Has anyone ever noticed how certain topics here on Bike Forums never manage to yield anything constructive? It's frustrating at times the way that proponents of a certain idea gleefully seize upon a new thread as a chance to open a new front in a dull internecine conflict.
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Old 09-01-17, 03:01 PM
  #44  
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I gotta agree with cyccommute. Triples can be set up cheap. My gravel bike has a seven speed FW, a nothing special triple, a cheap used FD, probably an old SunTour RD and DT shifters. Gears of 52-42-26 x 14-28. 21 gears from 100" to 25" Since it is 110/75 BCD, I have lots of options for different chainrings. SRAM 7-8 speed chain. Probably more than $100 but not a lot more.

Ben
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Old 09-01-17, 06:57 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
[/I]Has anyone else set up a 1x drivetrain for $450 or less? What did you use? What was the result; did it work? Are you planning such a drivetrain? How low, in terms of cost, do you think you could go? Are you now, or will you in the future, be in the posession of a 1x drivetrain that will cost less than the comparatively expensive drivetrain detailed in the article linked to in the original post?
You know that if you have an 8-10 speed freehub you can make any triple crank into a 1x if you run 7 speeds and probably 8 speeds, if you re-space to use a 9 speed shifter.

If you are so inclined, you can run an XT crank from the 90's ($50-$75) eBay, square taper bb ($25), 26t steel chainring ($15-$20 eBay), 8 or 9 speed shifter (good used XT $50). Maybe add a chain guide/keeper. Or just leave the FD on the seat tube to save money.

Don't use a spacer behind the cassette to improve the chainline to the inside chainring.

The nice thing is that if you ever wish you had a higher gear than 26-11, you can always slap a 36t in the middle position and a thumb shifter on the bars and pretend it is still a 1x, except when you grow tired of ripping along at 12mph.

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Old 09-01-17, 07:56 PM
  #46  
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The areas I ride don't have significant downhills but does have some super short climbing. It's a little bit more than I want for my 32-18 single speed.

So for me, changing over would mean fewer dabs uphill. I don't care about downhill since my entire motivation to ride off road is for the dog. She's fast but it's abusive to run too long and fast so I cruise her speed on the easy part.

My idea for a conversion at about $200

-snail brand 30t chainring off eBay for about $12

-11-42 Sunshine cassette off eBay for about $40

- 10 speed Zee shifter, Jenson, $22

- XT Rd, Jenson $65
-10 speed chain, Jenson, $15

I have a brand new set of cables and housing already.

The Santa Cruz Chameleon deraileur hanger is the best option for my frame, unfortunately it's $50, so that is part of the price. If you don't need that, the conversion is even cheaper
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Old 09-01-17, 08:41 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
The areas I ride don't have significant downhills but does have some super short climbing. It's a little bit more than I want for my 32-18 single speed.

So for me, changing over would mean fewer dabs uphill. I don't care about downhill since my entire motivation to ride off road is for the dog. She's fast but it's abusive to run too long and fast so I cruise her speed on the easy part.

My idea for a conversion at about $200

-snail brand 30t chainring off eBay for about $12

-11-42 Sunshine cassette off eBay for about $40

- 10 speed Zee shifter, Jenson, $22

- XT Rd, Jenson $65
-10 speed chain, Jenson, $15

I have a brand new set of cables and housing already.

The Santa Cruz Chameleon deraileur hanger is the best option for my frame, unfortunately it's $50, so that is part of the price. If you don't need that, the conversion is even cheaper
I have some areas like that as well, a few hundred kms of flat riverside bike paths with no real downhills. I was thinking about an Alfine 8 IGH, but they're really quite expensive for what they are, especially when sold by the local distributor.

I will use a 32t chainring with an 11-40t cassette, which gives a substantially lower gear than that available with the Alfine 8, but I am half thinking that for flat river paths I could use a 38t-40t chainring. I guess it will come down to the frameset I find for my N+1, whether I go with a heavy but tough steel frame or a lighter but harsher riding aluminum frame. I have been looking at the Sonder Camino frameset and I think it would make a nice little 1x9 urban bike with flat bars, but it just doesn't have space for 29x2.1 WTB Thickslicks.

Those Sunshine cassettes are really interesting, Chinese manufacturing is really coming along. Many Chinese sellers are also offering a cheap copy of the Wolftooth Roadlink with wide range cassettes, so you can just use a regular medium cage derailleur, without a clutch derailleur of course. If you're not ripping down hills through rock gardens and over tree roots, though, I don't think you really need a clutch derailleur. The Roadlink really comes into its own with 2x10 and 2x11 systems, but it is interesting to see what it, and the cheap Chinese copies, offer to budget 1x drivetrains.
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Old 09-01-17, 10:15 PM
  #48  
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Has anyone else set up a 1x drivetrain for $450 or less? What did you use? What was the result; did it work? Are you planning such a drivetrain? How low, in terms of cost, do you think you could go? Are you now, or will you in the future, be in the posession of a 1x drivetrain that will cost less than the comparatively expensive drivetrain detailed in the article linked to in the original post?
I did this setup on my wife's ex mini velo.

36t 165mm cranks - <usd$10
Sunrace 11-32t 8 speed cassette - about usd$10
Stock 6 speed chain - $0
Revoshift 8 speed - <usd$10
Altus rd - about usd $10

So that is <usd$40 for the mod. Lol.

Low gear of 22.5 inch, high gear of 65.5. Plenty low for casual rides, good range for cruising.

Planning to do another bike with the same setup except with Altus M310 shifter, which would be <usd$10 again.

Actually if you are not fussy about brand or chainring interchangeability, there are plenty of cheap fixed cranks of whatever teeth you want. Eg 32t 170mm is quite common.

And 8 speed cassettes are very cheap. You can get one for <usd$10 from taobao. Even Sunrace's new 11-40t goes for sgd$15 only.

Last edited by hermanchauw; 09-01-17 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 09-02-17, 09:56 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I haven't seen any insults until you showed up.

Pointing out the flaws of a gearing system is not insulting. Pointing out that this supposed "cheap" 1x system isn't cheap isn't insulting. Pointing out...which I am about to do...that spending $130 on a consumable item is, shall we say, silly isn't insulting.

The only person who has been insulting here has been you. You haven't added anything to the conversation. All you've done is stir the pot.

And the 1x crowd can't be all that fast since they have to coast on all the downhills.
Lol u mad
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Old 09-03-17, 03:50 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
I have some areas like that as well, a few hundred kms of flat riverside bike paths with no real downhills. I was thinking about an Alfine 8 IGH, but they're really quite expensive for what they are, especially when sold by the local distributor.

I will use a 32t chainring with an 11-40t cassette, which gives a substantially lower gear than that available with the Alfine 8, but I am half thinking that for flat river paths I could use a 38t-40t chainring. I guess it will come down to the frameset I find for my N+1, whether I go with a heavy but tough steel frame or a lighter but harsher riding aluminum frame. I have been looking at the Sonder Camino frameset and I think it would make a nice little 1x9 urban bike with flat bars, but it just doesn't have space for 29x2.1 WTB Thickslicks.

Those Sunshine cassettes are really interesting, Chinese manufacturing is really coming along. Many Chinese sellers are also offering a cheap copy of the Wolftooth Roadlink with wide range cassettes, so you can just use a regular medium cage derailleur, without a clutch derailleur of course. If you're not ripping down hills through rock gardens and over tree roots, though, I don't think you really need a clutch derailleur. The Roadlink really comes into its own with 2x10 and 2x11 systems, but it is interesting to see what it, and the cheap Chinese copies, offer to budget 1x drivetrains.
Over two approximately 30km rides during the weekend I experimented by just using my 39t chainring with the 12-36 cassette and it is just fine. I think my planned 32t chainring with an 11-40t cassette will become a 38t chainring. I am happy with the idea of that drivetrain for an N+1 river path bike. It's cheaper than the one in the article, but that may be on the guy's main bike and mine will be for my cardio bike.
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