Retrofitting old Paramount
 

Ok, this is more hypothetical than actionable. I'm selling my old Paramount. But what if...

The Paramount is nominally a 120mm rear dropout spacing. IT's actually about 121 or even 122. The wheel is a Campy Nuovo Record low flange, with a 6 cog freewheel.

Would it be technically feasible (that is, in good fashion, preserving a reasonable chainline, alignment, good ride, etc) to cold set the frame to a 126mm, and to get a new wheel with a 7 cog freewheel? Could I use the same Campy derailler and crank? And chain?

How about going whole hog and setting this to 130mm spacing. Would the frame perform well?

It's doable, but if you plan to sell do you think a buyer would prefer it original?

I concur. Most buyers want an unmolested vintage bike. If the buyer wants to spread the spacing, let him or her do it.

How old a Paramount? You might just find there is enough spring in the stays to allow a hub with 130mm dropout spacing to fit. What else you have to change depends on everything else. So you've got to give the details about your current derailleurs, cassette or freewheel, rear hub and shifters. Make, model, series, etc type stuff.

I just put an 11 speed combo on a 1991 Paramount frame set I just bought. 80 miles so far and I'm so glad that guy trying to sell the three year old carbon framed Specialized road bike refused my first offer.

Answering only whether it would be feasible, and not delving into whether it would be desirable, -- sure, probably.

I explained myself poorly. I'm selling the unmolested version of the frame, in good order, just as Rudy Schwinn sent it to me. This is more a "what if I came into money and could buy a vintage paramount - would I be able to make it more pleasantly rideable with a wider range rear cog?".

I can only give you anecdotal data and not every frame will do it -- but I have a vintage Jocelyn Lovell-built frame (circa 1982) that's spaced 126. I put Veloce 10-speed on there and just stuffed the 130mm rear wheel back there (the stays spread pretty easily by hand) and it's worked flawlessly since then. I went with a 12-25 (I think the freewheel was a 13-21 or something ridiculous like that) and haven't regretted it for one second. I believe it's Columbus SL tubing, which may make a difference as to how easy it is to spread the stays (but I don't know for sure). Also, I ain't exactly light but the frame holds me up sufficiently.

I don't think that materially change the answers you've gotten. I've got a '78 Raleigh Competition G.S. that I pulled off and saved most of the original components and put newer crank set, freewheel, brake levers. If I think original equipped is the better way to sell it, I can put it back easily.

Of course being able to do my own modifications, maintenance and service makes that feasible money wise.

So yes you can give an older bike better characteristics, and you may not have to alter the rear dropout at all depending on what you get.

Besides, the old steel always has ridden better than the new carbon.....IMO of course.

There is no one answer.

Paramounts were made for over 50 years.

There were a lot of subtle changes that add up. Different brake pull.

Side pull ==> center pull ==> side pull ==> dual pivot.

Recessed brake nuts.

I've been running an Ultegra RD on my old Colnago. I'm not sure the difference between NR 5s and NR 6s, but throwing to say 8s or 9s adds a fair amount of derailleur travel and relies on the spring to get I all the way back to very close to the mount. Repro long cages are available for NR RDs.

Anyway, lots of decisions on how to customize. All possible, but sometimes irreversible changes.

A lot depends on your riding style and conditions. Someone that likes staying in a narrow cadence band and rides with lots of elevation changes probably prefers a 9 or 10 gear setup. On the other hand a rider that doesn't care about cadence and spends most time on flat or rolling ground might be happy with 6 gears.

With 120, I generally cold set instead of spreading. And I generally advise against going up more than one 'size', so 120 to 126 or 126 to 130, but not 120 to 130. 10 mm of cold set or spread can cause problems with the brake bridge and/or chainstay bridge if there is one.

Good news is by going to 126 you can do a LOT, like a 7 speed freewheel on your existing wheelset (respaced to 126 and redished), or any mid-late 80's Japanese hubs laced to a modern set of rims on which you can use 7 speed or '8 of 9' or '9 of 10' (look up those terms for a full explanation) on the narrower freehub.

When I am spreading rear triangles I use a pair of blocks with grooves to fit the stays which I clamp across the brake bridge to keep from stressing the bridge's welds/braze. They were made by drilling an appropriate hole through a wood block, then sawing the block in half leaving two pieces with half-round grooves. Cinch them down with a bar clamp and spread away!

I would look for a frame that had useful braze ons for water bottles and cable routing. I don't like having stuff clamped on. You may be into the 126 era by then and almost any upgrade is possible. Check C&V for threads on vintage frames with modern components.

My take is more along the lines of either making a little value bike more usable (my wife's Univega) or upgrading a lifetime bike to make it even better. If the bike is one if those special rides, but the time has come to go to brifters or wider gearing, it is something I would do; it will just bring many more enjoyable miles.

If it is just a collectible bike, but not a love-to-ride bike, probably not.

John

120 =5 speed 126=6 speed.

Fietsbob, I had a 6 cog in there on the campy low flange, nominal spacing 120mm, and it worked fine.

Sheldon, of ever honored memory, gives 120 as allowing 5 or "Ultra-6" cogs 126 as allowing 6 and 7 speed cogs. (His crib sheet is here). I guess I have an ultra 6.

Right now, I have a 1999 Lemond Zurich in 853, that was spaced to 126. I bumped it to 130, and made sure it's aligned. I also had to open up the dropout, whi]ch appeared to be sized for a 9mm axle instead of modern 10mm axles. If that rides as nice as I think it will, well, then "I can't afford to go chasing nostalgia" as a local bike shop service manager opined (about his own situation).

That said, if I could find a 23-1/2" or 24" Paramount frame in 531, then perhaps I could put together something both beautifully vintage yet ridable. I weigh 240, am older now, and have some climbs on all the rides around my house, and so getting a rear 28 tooth cog on a 7 speed hub would be a good idea.

One more thing to consider is that leaving the spacing at 120-122mm and just spreading for a 6-7 freewheel hub tends to bend and break axels if the dropouts are not aligned for the wider spacing. Mostly a problem for old freewheel hubs as the DS bearing sat closer to the center than on cassette hubs. If you choose not to do a cold set I would stay away from 126mm freewheel hubs.

...this, pretty much ^^^. I just finished cold setting a 126 Pinarello to 130 so I could use some OK 8 speed wheels that I had. It came to me with a complete 8 speed Dura Ace setup, with a 7 speed 130 wheel stuck in there at 126.

I assume it worked for whoever put it together that way, but it bothered me.

There are a whole lot of Paramounts from the 126 era sporting Shimano indexing systems that work very well, if indexing is what you're after. They are, of course, different from the previous generation of Chicago cage built Paramounts, but are wonderful bicycles IME.

You can still get a pretty good top to bottom range of gearing with a 120, 5 speed rear cluster, if you just look for one of those swell Crane derailleurs that they used to put on the touring Paramounts at the time.


I would probably not cold set one of those to 126, but I've certainly done things that were more radical.

120mm OLD rear spacing suggests late 70s at the latest.

"Springing" the dropouts that far without cold-setting can create hub axle problems, as the dropout faces will no longer be parallel. Cold-setting by 10mm can be done, but will likely result in a noticable "bowing" at the brake bridge. 126mm is entirely feasible and unlikely to create noticable bowing. 5, 6, or 7-cog clusters work with 126mm spacing.

That said, I agree with previous comments that unless you plan on keeping the bike, you should let the next owner decide if the frame should be spread.

+1 on the whole only spreading 1 size thing. I don't worry about next owners because I've accepted that I'm a hoarder who hates getting rid of things (though my life would be a lot easier if I did).

Well, you know the answer if you want to be able to sell an unmolested frame... but I think spreading to 126mm and realigning would be pretty forgivable by most. That opens up a lot more freewheel options (Ultra-6 freewheels are getting pretty dear), and you can always run a 5-speed freewheel on a 126mm hub if desired.

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Well he said he was selling the one that had the 120mm spacing. So depending on what he buys determines whether he needs to worry about adjusting the back dropout spacing.