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Small-small while at rest

Old 09-05-17, 11:27 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I assume you mean "sewups" (stupid autocorrect!).

It would depend on how the tires are stored as to whether or not deflating them would be harmful or a pointless exercise. If the tires have weight on them, then the practice is harmful. If the tires are hung up, the practice is merely pointless.
Yeah SEWUPS - I think I even un-autocorrected that once and it un-un-autocorrected me.

Sure, not a good idea to park or store your bike on flat tires... SEWUPS or not.

I've been thinking of other old superstitious things I used to do as well with no or little basis in reality - like aging tires, not having sex before a race

I still put baby powder in my clinchers though... I don't care what they say.
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Old 09-05-17, 12:50 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
I've been thinking of other old superstitious things I used to do as well with no or little basis in reality - like aging tires, not having sex before a race

I still put baby powder in my clinchers though... I don't care what they say.
Back when hand-laid silk/cotton tubulars were made in a cold process with the tread being applied w/ adhesive aging was indeed required for the best durability and performance. A "green" tire's bond required curing for the adhesives used at the time to be fully effective and for the sidewall treatment to penetrate and cure as well. My team purchased silks by the bundle, shared costs and aged the tires in a cool dark environment for at least a few months to cure before installing them to race on. Green tires were more fragile than properly aged tires, but like white wine best consumed while "young".

Since pro teams consume most hand-laid tubulars like FMB it's unlikely that you'll be storing, aging & stretching any Criterium Setas in your wine cave' any time soon.....

FMB TIRE FACILITY

"From Specialized:
Our tubulars should be allowed to age for at least two months after production for the glue to bond. Ideally, the tires are not folded to not stress the bond. (That is why we don’t box them up, but deliver pure and loose with a mere hangtag on it.)

There are glued interfaces between base tape and casing and between casing and tread.

After this curing or aging period, the tire is fit for use. And we recommend it for use right away, because the compounds won’t have dried out and give their best performance. [That’s] unlike a rather old-school [approach] to age tubulars for at least a year. This advice aims at drying the tread compound. The compound hardens over time and this increases puncture protection. A dried-out tire does not collect debris as much and is a harder barrier to penetrate. There is truth to this. At the same time, anti-puncture materials got much better than they were in the heyday of [tubulars] in the 70s/80s. These fabric layers are built in under the tread and prevent most debris [from] punching through. Thus, we would never sacrifice grip and speed of the modern materials for that little extra protection a dried tire might offer.

Drying the glue does apply to the Turbo Cotton clincher. Same materials. The cotton clincher is flat though — the casing is not forced into a tubular shape and the tread is not forced to bend into the sidewall. So it can be rolled up and stored in a box no problem.

Mounting on a rim stretches and spreads the casing. It doesn’t do much for a clincher, but it helps when mounting the tubular again. Makes it easier, and easy is good when dealing with rim cement too.
— Wolf Vorm Walde, tire research and development director at Specialized
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Old 09-05-17, 02:20 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by maddog34 View Post
springs fail if over-stressed... springs "get weak" if left in a stressed position for long periods of time... spring quality varies.

is your der. a high quality one? if so, not much worry, as the pivot points will typically get loose before the spring gets weak...

cables don't care one bit under normal stress...

click or brifter shifters use tiny, tiny springs... one of those tiny springs is a flat, coiled wire... it can be relieved by shifting all the way to the lowest position of the shifter.

twist shifters have a spring that is always under some load, regardless of position of derailleurs.......

anyone that doesn't think springs get weaker over time should go look at several old Ford Mustangs of the 1964-65 vintage... if the rear springs aren't sagged out, someone has replaced them already.... they were improperly heat treated... quality control issues happen all the time in manufacturing.....

i've replaced more that a dozen rear ders. that had failing wrap springs... and two or three with a broken or weak swing spring...... they were mostly over twenty years old.

most brifters and click shifters "fail" when the GREASE gets dry/hard... i've seen a couple with a broken return spring so far, and a couple more that had bad pawl springs, too.... no way to relieve those tiny pawl springs.... the ones with broken springs were low-budget offerings, including TOURNEY Shimano units.
Sorry but no. Science says so.

Extended-time-scale creep measurement on Maraging cantilever blade springs - ScienceDirect
https://zeus.plmsc.psu.edu/~manias/Ma...luidModels.pdf

You give an example of a 60 year old car. Who on earth wouldn't have replaced those springs by now? How are you differentiating fatigue from repeated cycling vs. creep? A 60 year old car would have a hell of a lot of cycles on those springs. What about all of the other 60 year old cars that still have perfectly functioning rear suspension? I'm sure there are many more than a few years of mustangs.

What you are doing is badly extrapolating from a very small data set and ignoring the very large data set of perfectly functioning 60 year old springs. That's how we end up with what's called "fake news."

Good job.

I've fixed hundreds perhaps even thousands of bikes of bikes with perfectly functioning 25-40 year old derailleurs, even "cheap" ones. I've also never seen a brifter fail from a weak spring. They very often fail long before that due to many other reasons (crashes, grease, dirt, corrosion.)

Yes, spring creep/relaxation happens. No, it does not happen on a timescale relevant to the lifecycle of these products. It is almost always something else that kills it first, with the most prominent contender being corrosion/wear.

I have a dozen bikes in my garage that are 30 years or older with their original derailleurs on them. (Or at least a replacement of the exact same kind of derailleur.) And they all work perfectly fine, and they're almost always kept in a big/semi-big combination (the combo that I stop in.)
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Old 09-05-17, 03:54 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
Finally I would note that what you asked was not pro/con regarding the practice, but rather whether you were mistaken in your belief ("delusional") about it avoiding wear. None of the "pro" posts provides any evidence that you were correct.
Not quite right. Pro/con debate by definition:
"An argument or consideration in favour of something; reasoning in support of a proposition, thesis, etc. Chiefly in pros and cons (also pros and contras): reasons or arguments for and against something, advantages and disadvantages.

Not really looking for hard "evidence" for my premise, but just simply soliciting input, thoughts, and opinions. There may be none either way. Just an interesting point for discussion.

Last edited by Richard8655; 09-05-17 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 09-05-17, 04:50 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Richard8655 View Post
Not really looking for hard "evidence" for my premise, but just simply soliciting input, thoughts, and opinions. There may be none either way. Just an interesting point for discussion.
The "hard evidence" i.e. metallurgy, for your premise says it's a waste of time. The "soft evidence" i.e. "it makes me feel good", is yours for the acceptance.
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Old 09-05-17, 05:06 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Stormsedge View Post
I just try to leave my bike in a gear I can turn getting outta the garage.
x2
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Old 09-05-17, 06:01 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Richard8655 View Post
Not quite right. Pro/con debate by definition:
"An argument or consideration in favour of something; reasoning in support of a proposition, thesis, etc. Chiefly in pros and cons (also pros and contras): reasons or arguments for and against something, advantages and disadvantages.

Not really looking for hard "evidence" for my premise, but just simply soliciting input, thoughts, and opinions. There may be none either way. Just an interesting point for discussion.
This isn't like asking if red or blue is a better color. There is no "pro" to doing something built on a false premise. My bathroom example applies here. If one says, "I avoid the 1st stall because so many people use it," the problem is that the assumption that more people use it is false. It's useless to debate whether a decision based on a false premise sounds sensible. I know the issue itself is not critical - I just enjoy looking at the logical part of a discussion.
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Old 09-05-17, 07:27 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
The "hard evidence" i.e. metallurgy, for your premise says it's a waste of time. The "soft evidence" i.e. "it makes me feel good", is yours for the acceptance.
I disagree with your conclusion from what I've read on the subject, but you can also believe what makes you feel is "right" as well.
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Old 09-05-17, 08:52 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Richard8655 View Post
I disagree with your conclusion from what I've read on the subject, but you can also believe what makes you feel is "right" as well.
You should check your sources more carefully. My "belief" is based on centuries of metallurgical development and science. What are yours based on?
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Old 09-05-17, 11:04 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
Sorry but no. Science says so.

Extended-time-scale creep measurement on Maraging cantilever blade springs - ScienceDirect
https://zeus.plmsc.psu.edu/~manias/Ma...luidModels.pdf

You give an example of a 60 year old car. Who on earth wouldn't have replaced those springs by now? How are you differentiating fatigue from repeated cycling vs. creep? A 60 year old car would have a hell of a lot of cycles on those springs. What about all of the other 60 year old cars that still have perfectly functioning rear suspension? I'm sure there are many more than a few years of mustangs.

What you are doing is badly extrapolating from a very small data set and ignoring the very large data set of perfectly functioning 60 year old springs. That's how we end up with what's called "fake news."

Good job.

I've fixed hundreds perhaps even thousands of bikes of bikes with perfectly functioning 25-40 year old derailleurs, even "cheap" ones. I've also never seen a brifter fail from a weak spring. They very often fail long before that due to many other reasons (crashes, grease, dirt, corrosion.)

Yes, spring creep/relaxation happens. No, it does not happen on a timescale relevant to the lifecycle of these products. It is almost always something else that kills it first, with the most prominent contender being corrosion/wear.

I have a dozen bikes in my garage that are 30 years or older with their original derailleurs on them. (Or at least a replacement of the exact same kind of derailleur.) And they all work perfectly fine, and they're almost always kept in a big/semi-big combination (the combo that I stop in.)
and YOU are extrapolating on your limited experience with bicycles. I have worked on literally hundreds of types of machines... i have seen thousands of failing springs of various configurations. they fail. they wear. the get tired after extended periods of compression, extension, and coiling. they require readjustment or replacement depending on their condition...

some types of springs bend, some twist. do you know which types do which? i do. have you ever made a spring? i have. do you know how a spring is made? i do. do you understand how metals are alloyed? i do. have you ever manufactured anything at all? i have. do you understand metal fatigue? i do.

good job of showing your limited experience with springs.

"I have a dozen bikes in my garage that are 30 years or older with their original derailleurs on them. (Or at least a replacement of the exact same kind of derailleur.)"
test a new old stock der for wrap tension.... then test a really old one of the exact same type.... get back to me with an apology for your ignorance.

springs lose their original tension after the first excursion, and every excursion after that.... typically known as a "break in period", btw. A critical spring will/should be cycled through it's expected range of motion multiple times before installation.

i chose the mustang example hoping most had noticed that famous failure.... you glommed onto that one example, and tried in vain to indict my abilities and experience... you failed.

Last edited by maddog34; 09-05-17 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 09-05-17, 11:23 PM
  #36  
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This thread seems to be getting a bit rancorous.

At the risk of becoming the latest target, let me see if I can clear up the issues.

First of all, NOBODY is saying that springs don't age and sag over time.

However, the issue is whether they do so as a result of being kept in a constant compressed state, or if the aging is the cumulative result of repetitive compress/relax cycling.

That's what the OP asked about, whether it made sense to relax the tensions when not in use.

Add mine to those who say it doesn't (as I said way back at post no. 2), because it's the cycling, not the time and static tension that count.

So, to consider the car analogy, car springs sag because of what they go through on lousy roads. If a car were simply parked for 60 years, the springs would still be like new, and that's regardless of quality.

So, as you flame me, and tell me how wrong I am, please stick to the point of whether constant tension, in and of itself, is hard on springs or not.

I'm out.
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Old 09-06-17, 07:08 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Richard8655 View Post
I disagree with your conclusion from what I've read on the subject, but you can also believe what makes you feel is "right" as well.
Why ask if your assumption is correct if you are going to reject information by someone with relevant expertise, without providing any refutation to his points?

But let's discuss the downside of your practice. You have to shift to that combo every time you park the bike, and out of it every time you ride again. What about the extra stress on the chain, rear cogs, chainrings, front derailleur cage, derailleur pivots, springs, cables and shifters from at least one additional shift every riding day? Are you going to argue that those effects are less than what you supposedly gain from reduced static stress while parked?

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Old 09-06-17, 08:47 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by maddog34 View Post
and YOU are extrapolating on your limited experience with bicycles. I have worked on literally hundreds of types of machines... i have seen thousands of failing springs of various configurations. they fail. they wear. the get tired after extended periods of compression, extension, and coiling. they require readjustment or replacement depending on their condition...

some types of springs bend, some twist. do you know which types do which? i do. have you ever made a spring? i have. do you know how a spring is made? i do. do you understand how metals are alloyed? i do. have you ever manufactured anything at all? i have. do you understand metal fatigue? i do.

good job of showing your limited experience with springs.

"I have a dozen bikes in my garage that are 30 years or older with their original derailleurs on them. (Or at least a replacement of the exact same kind of derailleur.)"
test a new old stock der for wrap tension.... then test a really old one of the exact same type.... get back to me with an apology for your ignorance.

springs lose their original tension after the first excursion, and every excursion after that.... typically known as a "break in period", btw. A critical spring will/should be cycled through it's expected range of motion multiple times before installation.

i chose the mustang example hoping most had noticed that famous failure.... you glommed onto that one example, and tried in vain to indict my abilities and experience... you failed.
No one is arguing that springs don't get worn from USE I.E. compression and expansion. What we are arguing is that they get worn from sitting while compressed for long periods of time. Science, (and I) say that they do not do so in a measurable amount in the time periods and conditions that a bike in a garage would experience. Did you even look at the links I put in the last post? I doubt it, probably went over your head. Probably didn't even see that over a 100 days a very weak and fragile spring only relented a tenth of a mm or so. I really don't care about your experience. How many peer reviewed publications have you written on the subject? Let me guess, none?

Let me guess, you're one of those people who think that your limited experience is better than the entire engineering and scientific communities who study this sort of stuff. Yeah? I figured.

So I will ask this very, very simple question again. In all of your examples, how are you separating wear from use, I.E. compression and expansion, from wear from creep in the form of a dislocation or diffusion process? Oh you can't? You don't have a perfectly preserved derailleur that's been sitting in a compressed/extended state for 40 years? Oh shame... Seems your limited experience is actually quite useless here...

You may have the years on me, but I'm a materials scientist. Good luck.
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Old 09-06-17, 11:05 AM
  #39  
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The only reason this discussion rages on is because Shimano has not been able to build spring failure into their design for planned obsolescence and upgrade. So far they have done an admirable job with their brifters over the years, but those dang derailleur springs just won't wear out quick enough. Hopefully with the addition of even more cogs failure will be accelerated.

...lol.

John
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Old 09-06-17, 11:13 AM
  #40  
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+1. Bring back the plastic Simplex derailleurs. Then we can have a real debate.
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Old 09-06-17, 11:20 AM
  #41  
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Maybe I need to start taking my chain off after each ride and lay it out on a flat surface where every link is supported. That way it won't be stretching while I'm not using the bike.
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Old 09-06-17, 11:25 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
The only reason this discussion rages on is because Shimano has not been able to build spring failure into their design for planned obsolescence and upgrade. So far they have done an admirable job with their brifters over the years, but those dang derailleur springs just won't wear out quick enough. Hopefully with the addition of even more cogs failure will be accelerated.

...lol.

John
Discounting all considerations of spring size and degree of flex, there's a simple mathematical reason why lever springs fail far more often than RD springs.

The lever spring flexes through a full cycle with every shift of one sprocket. That's two cycles for two sprockets, or 9 cycles when shifting a 10s high to low. Plus 9 more when shifting back to high, to complete one flex cycle of the RD spring, for a total of 18:1 in flex cycles.

If we go back to the original question, it's one more reason NOT to return the RD to low. Doing so doesn't help the RD, whose springs don't tend to fail anyway, but increases wear and tear on the lever springs which are already shorter lived.
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Old 09-06-17, 11:26 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Maybe I need to start taking my chain off after each ride and lay it out on a flat surface where every link is supported. That way it won't be stretching while I'm not using the bike.
Don't forget to detension the wheels.
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Old 09-06-17, 11:27 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
No one is arguing that springs don't get worn from USE I.E. compression and expansion. What we are arguing is that they get worn from sitting while compressed for long periods of time. Science, (and I) say that they do not do so in a measurable amount in the time periods and conditions that a bike in a garage would experience. Did you even look at the links I put in the last post? I doubt it, probably went over your head. Probably didn't even see that over a 100 days a very weak and fragile spring only relented a tenth of a mm or so. I really don't care about your experience. How many peer reviewed publications have you written on the subject? Let me guess, none?

Let me guess, you're one of those people who think that your limited experience is better than the entire engineering and scientific communities who study this sort of stuff. Yeah? I figured.

So I will ask this very, very simple question again. In all of your examples, how are you separating wear from use, I.E. compression and expansion, from wear from creep in the form of a dislocation or diffusion process? Oh you can't? You don't have a perfectly preserved derailleur that's been sitting in a compressed/extended state for 40 years? Oh shame... Seems your limited experience is actually quite useless here...

You may have the years on me, but I'm a materials scientist. Good luck.
so... you have very little real world mechanical experience... thank you for that information.

go conduct a test dreamed up by material scientists.... in a lab... with arbitrary time constraints applied by industrial wants

i'll keep replacing and adjusting springs and such.... ones that have sometimes failed from sitting around in a state of compression, torque, or extension, for too long a time.

ever used a sudden physical shock to help set a metal part into a new position? i have. Have you ever bent metal past the desired point to achieve the desired new shape? i have. ever welded metals together using only enough heat to produce a state of plasticity? i have.... using a hammer.

metal memory.... go look it up.

experience is never "useless", btw... go get some... great tool!

and to answer your question: measurements, vision, and touch..... and occasionally, sound.

go ride your bike... but know that every single time it's springs are flexed, the materials in them are losing cohesion between the crystaline structures that compose those materials... but you should already be aware of that, right?

now, if you don't have any further insults to attempt, i have 3 rental return bikes to inspect and clean before they get set back out for sale, and a couple T&S's to complete.... have fun!

Last edited by maddog34; 09-06-17 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 09-06-17, 11:30 AM
  #45  
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OK, this has deteriorated into a contentious and non-helpful discussion. Short answer, if it makes you feel good, do it. Administrator: Time to end this thread.
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Old 09-06-17, 01:54 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by maddog34 View Post
and YOU are extrapolating on your limited experience with bicycles . . . . .
Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
No one is arguing that springs don't get worn from USE I.E. compression . . . .
Ya know, it would be nice if you two guys calmed down a bit and stopped the bickering.
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Old 09-06-17, 01:57 PM
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this has gotten rather heated for no particular reason, so I'm closing it


Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
OK, this has deteriorated into a contentious and non-helpful discussion. Short answer, if it makes you feel good, do it. Administrator: Time to end this thread.
if you think something should be closed, or some other communication with the moderators is desired, you should use the report function (red circle with exclamation mark)
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