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Gouged PFBB shell (internal)

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Gouged PFBB shell (internal)

Old 09-23-17, 06:12 PM
  #1  
Shinkers
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Gouged PFBB shell (internal)

I've emailed Kona about this but thought I'd get all of your professional opinions.


Long story short, I had a brand new Wheels Manufacturing thread together press fit bottom bracket in my mountain bike, installed for a SRAM crank swap (previously was on Race Face). I needed to remove the BB again, to add a spacer to the drive side cup.


Within half a turn of twisting out the non-drive cup, it started to get really hard turning, like it'd been cross threaded even though it threaded in smoothly.


I had no other choice but to keep untwisting it to get it out of the frame. Once out, it looks like it actually got cocked to one side or might have caught the lip inside of the shell and picked up a burr that gouged the shell on the way out.


So what would be my next step? Can I just run some sand paper over the gouges and throw in another bottom bracket? Or is the shell compromised enough that it could cause issues with the PF cup staying in the frame?


Thanks.
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Old 09-23-17, 06:15 PM
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Pics.
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Old 09-23-17, 08:13 PM
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it looks like it got over-torqued when installed....
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Old 09-23-17, 08:53 PM
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Definitely could have been. These cups are too big for my socket/torque wrench so I'm using the Wheels wrench. They list a max torque of 50nm so I thought I was probably gonna be okay but I might have got carried away.

I'm not going to reuse that bottom bracket but I am worried about the shell.

Last edited by Shinkers; 09-23-17 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 09-23-17, 09:06 PM
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It looks like galling. If it were mine I'd sand, file both the BB and the bearing cups smooth and liberally apply anti-seize and put it back together.
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Old 09-23-17, 09:07 PM
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i always wonder about the validity of those "max. torque" specs... "was that for a Cup installed into a steel frame? aluminum frame? steel thread insert in a carbon frame?". etc...

i go for about 20 ft. lbs. when installing aluminum into aluminum, personally... no issues so far...

50nm is about 37 ft/lbs. by the way... fine thread rate, aluminum for both threads... add a bit of tolerance mismatch, and the results are clearly visible in your pics...

i've seen where locktite can cause similar thread damage, too... torque to max, add some locktite, and then, when you go to REMOVE the part.... bummer time!

some threaded BB shells come with locktite already applied... just sayin'..... it melts at a rather low 1200 to 1400 degrees... GALLING is the result... add high torque(PRESSURE!), and........... oops!


did you apply some grease to the threads before initial install?
Aluminum LOVES to stick to other aluminum.... see: Galling.

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Old 09-23-17, 09:08 PM
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Since it is press fit, if the bottom bracket fits back in tightly, then you'll probably be OK. Do you have a clean bottom bracket cup to press back in? Cleaned up the one you have?

As far as what happened, I'm not quite sure. It looks like you had probably lubed it. Your frame photo looks clean... did you wipe it down?

Perhaps the bottom bracket bottomed out in the machined portion of the frame, although that transition between machined and not looks smooth.

Not enough lube in the frame? If you just lubed the bottom bracket, as it pressed in, it would have cleaned the cups so you ended up with a dry interface.
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Old 09-23-17, 10:23 PM
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I cleaned the frame up prior to install and lubed the cup and the shell as well as the threads of the bb.

If it looks like it'll be okay, I'd use a new bottom bracket, possibly a regular SRAM press fit vs. going back to another Wheels one. The non drive cup on the Wheels is undersized so it can spin. The SRAM would at least be a bit tighter. Plus, in a similar situation, you can just drive out the cup on the Wheels; you're committed to turning it and at the mercy of how the cup wants to spin.

I'll try and get up some better pics as well.

Thanks guys.
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Old 09-23-17, 10:29 PM
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Hopefully a bit better...
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Old 09-24-17, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Shinkers View Post
I've emailed Kona about this
What are you expecting from Kona as a response?
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Old 09-24-17, 06:59 AM
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I have not had that specific problem, but recently I was unable to screw in a bottom bracket cup in two separate bikes. Both had paint or dirt in the threads. I pulled out a dentist’s pick from my collection of toys and carefully scraped out the threads. I then cleaned the threads well and oiled them liberally, and the cup screwed in without further problem.

From what I can see in your pic, you should be able to clean out those threads with a fine pick. If that does not work you could find a shop that has a tap and can clean the threads out.
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Old 09-24-17, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 02Giant View Post
What are you expecting from Kona as a response?
An opinion on whether or not the shell is still usable. I'm not expecting a warranty or anything if that's what you're implying, this is totally all on me. But if they said that the shell isn't going to reliably hold a cup any more, I'd look for a new frame.
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Old 09-24-17, 12:44 PM
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Better to go to your Kona dealer , done that yet?
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Old 09-24-17, 01:04 PM
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The dealer where I bought the bike is an hour away so no, I haven't done that yet.

I lightly sanded the shell from 220 up to 2000 and got it mostly cleaned up.

Problem is now I can push the cup halfway in by hand. Not looking good.
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Old 09-24-17, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Shinkers View Post
The dealer where I bought the bike is an hour away so no, I haven't done that yet.

I lightly sanded the shell from 220 up to 2000 and got it mostly cleaned up.

Problem is now I can push the cup halfway in by hand. Not looking good.
Make sure to use Locktite Green to help hold the bearings in place. My guess is that you'll be fine with Loctite. The indication that you have something wrong would be the BB wearing out after <1000mi, or horrible creaking.

If the shell is shot, go back to a Wheels Mfg type adapter, and the frame is still usable.
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Old 09-24-17, 01:23 PM
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By wheels adapter, are you referring to the thread together version I was using?

Would it be worth it to jump to that and green loctite? The bearings are replaceable so the cup could stay with the frame.
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Old 09-24-17, 01:57 PM
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Green loctite is listed as "wicking" for pre-assembled parts. I don' think that is what you need. So, that leaves you with:
Purple - Low strength
Blue - Medium
Red - Permanent.

Or something else like JB Weld that gives some buildup.
With the damage and looseness, I think you may be stuck going back to the Wheels Manufacturing BB cups. So, try to get it spaced properly this time, then lock it in place.

Oh, can you reverse the Wheels Manufacturing BB shell, so the largest end is on the side where you have the oversized hole, and the smallest end is where you have the normal shell?
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Old 09-24-17, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Green loctite is listed as "wicking" for pre-assembled parts. I don' think that is what you need. So, that leaves you with:
Purple - Low strength
Blue - Medium
Red - Permanent.

Or something else like JB Weld that gives some buildup.



With the damage and looseness, I think you may be stuck going back to the Wheels Manufacturing BB cups. So, try to get it spaced properly this time, then lock it in place.

Oh, can you reverse the Wheels Manufacturing BB shell, so the largest end is on the side where you have the oversized hole, and the smallest end is where you have the normal shell?


Loctite 609 is what FSA sells with their BB30/threaded sleeve adapter. However, actually looking at what's out there, I think 660 sounds like exactly what I need.


I'm not sure on flipping the Wheels BB. However, I think it may be beneficial to have one side that is as tight a fit as possible.

Edit: Correction, I can push the non drive cup all of the way in by hand, though it is snug.

Last edited by Shinkers; 09-24-17 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 09-24-17, 10:19 PM
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Is this the thread together Wheels BB? If so I would not worry that it is not a press fit on the side you thread in, non-drive side I believe. I installed on of the Wheels BBs a few weeks ago. From my observation what holds it together is the torque after tightening the two halves together. As indicated above clean up the burrs coat the shoulder of the Wheels non drive side cup with anti seize and the threaded section and tighten to specs.
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Old 09-25-17, 06:29 AM
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is that a groove for a snap ring in the bb shell or a lip/ shelf that the bearing rests against? looks like the wheels bb is bottoming out on a lip/shelf and galling
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Old 09-25-17, 06:54 AM
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Wsteve, yes that's what this is.

Reptile, that is a shelf. I never had a problem with the first (race face) version so I'm thinking I probably did over torque that cup.
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Old 09-25-17, 07:35 AM
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First, it would seem that whomever did the press fit originally for your BB didn't use anti-sieze, and you got galling. The next step, which you took, would be to remove burrs and assess the bearing seat. Ideally, when one does this, one only abrades the galled sections. A machinist would have used an abrasive stone, like a whetstone, to "stone" down any burrs that were proud of the surface. With the precise application of abrasion, one doesn't enlarge or bell-mouth the hole and you retain "press fit" tolerances and not "slip fit".

It seems like you applied the abrasive all-round, but the fact that you still have some press-fit left in the cup gives one hope. There is a specific product by Loctite for bearing retention that should allow your setup to work nicely. Looks like you are all over it: it is their Bearing Retention Compound 609. This will allow you to install the bearings and use the bike, but will make it difficult to remove the bearing again later on. Since you have a metal frame, you can use heat to break the bond if you need to do that later, though.

If you have a bearing installation tool (or a piece of threaded rod with two nuts and some washers), you probably will be ok with what you have and compound 609. Note that 609 is an either/or with anti-seize: you use one or the other, not both. And if you do use 609, you should clean the metal surfaces first. I'd use some mineral spirits, followed by a cotton ball that was damp with acetone (careful with acetone: it eats paint).

If the LBS installed the BB bearing originally, they should make good on any repairs - metal to metal friction fits of any kind should at least get grease, if not proper antiseize.
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Old 09-25-17, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
First, it would seem that whomever did the press fit originally for your BB didn't use anti-sieze, and you got galling. The next step, which you took, would be to remove burrs and assess the bearing seat. Ideally, when one does this, one only abrades the galled sections. A machinist would have used an abrasive stone, like a whetstone, to "stone" down any burrs that were proud of the surface. With the precise application of abrasion, one doesn't enlarge or bell-mouth the hole and you retain "press fit" tolerances and not "slip fit".

It seems like you applied the abrasive all-round, but the fact that you still have some press-fit left in the cup gives one hope. There is a specific product by Loctite for bearing retention that should allow your setup to work nicely. Looks like you are all over it: it is their Bearing Retention Compound 609. This will allow you to install the bearings and use the bike, but will make it difficult to remove the bearing again later on. Since you have a metal frame, you can use heat to break the bond if you need to do that later, though.

If you have a bearing installation tool (or a piece of threaded rod with two nuts and some washers), you probably will be ok with what you have and compound 609. Note that 609 is an either/or with anti-seize: you use one or the other, not both. And if you do use 609, you should clean the metal surfaces first. I'd use some mineral spirits, followed by a cotton ball that was damp with acetone (careful with acetone: it eats paint).

If the LBS installed the BB bearing originally, they should make good on any repairs - metal to metal friction fits of any kind should at least get grease, if not proper antiseize.
The side of the BB that is galled is not press fit to begin with. The Wheels BB replaces the pressfit BB with a threaded together bottom bracket. The drive side bearing cup is pulled into the BB housing by threading the non-drive side bearing cup into the drive side, the reason the wrench is used to install. The non-drive side cup is no longer a press fit as it needs to rotate to tighten against the drive side cup. The 2 parts of the BB are not held together by a press fit.

OP do not use loctite on the bearing cup it will never come apart as you will nolonger be able to turn the non drive side cup.
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Old 09-25-17, 09:18 AM
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Thousands of bikes made with the same boring reamer, the tool wears,
the production pace and Price, does not allow aerospace / formula One level of machining..

Get Realistic !
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Old 09-25-17, 09:32 AM
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Wizard, the bb was installed by me using grease per wheels mfg. installation instructions.

Steve, as far as loctite on the cup: the wheels bearings are replaceable so if the cup were fixed, the bearings could still be swapped.
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