Wheelbuilding: Spoke question
 

Now that I have picked up a truing stand (and a dish tool and tension meter that came along) I am looking at trying my luck at my first set of wheels. I am having some difficulty with picking the correct spokes. Well I should say that the online calculators I have tried have given me similar information but the problem is if I should go up or down in the spoke length.

I am going to be using Ultegra 6500 32h hubs and Sun M13-II rims. I plan to use a 3 cross pattern. Nothing fancy, just get through my first build with success.

Using 2 different calculators I come up with:

Calculators are: Edd (DT Swiss)

Front
Crosses Spoke length left Spoke lenght right Tension ratio L/R
3 299.1 (299) 299.1 (299) 100%

Rear
Crosses Spoke length left Spoke lenght right Tension ratio L/R
3 297.9(298) 296.3(297) 52%

It appears Rose Bikes DT Swiss Alpine III is a great price for spokes so that is what I was looking at. Any other better deals for a good spokes? The problem I am running into is the length options. I can get 296 and 298 but not 297 or 299. Can anyone confirm that I could likely go with 298mm spokes for the front and for the rear use 298/296? Please advise if I am way off. I read a few other threads and they all appear to indicate that the length has some leeway too it.

Thank you!

I'd use 298 for the front and 298/296 for the rear.

Rounding up makes the wheels a little bit easier to lace. Rounding down means you will be less likely of running out of spoke threads as you bring the wheel up to tension.

Is this for a tandem or a heavily loaded bike?

This is a nice summary. You can generally get away with being off by a millimeter or two in either direction. I prefer to round down. The rims you're considering are shallow enough that lacing shouldn't be terribly difficult. It's hard to beat the Rose Bikes price for spokes of that quality.

I built a set usimg M13 II's about 5-1/2 years ago. my notes-

Hubs Deore HB-590 &FH-RM30
DT Swiss spokes

Front rim is Sun M13 II
Used 300
15-16-15 could have used 1mm shorter

Rear rim is Sun M13 II
Used 298 & 299
14-15-14 DS & 15-16-15 NDS could have used 1mm shorter

In both cases, 1mm shorter would have made the spoke end flush with the nipple slot.

Spoke choice seems off to me too. 32h ultegra with sun M13II, I'd just go with DT competition.

I asked because if he doesn't really need the beefy spokes, I know where he can get high quality double butted spokes cut and rolled to any length, dirt cheap.

No. This isn't for a tandem or a heavy load. The spokes were cheaper than other choices I have found. I'm still reading a wheel building book so it will be about before I buy the spokes.

A more suitable spoke. Double butted, 14/15/14, cut and rolled to your specs, includes excellent nipples, any quantity, ships same day for $6.00, for 40 cents each.

https://www.danscomp.com/products/43...ted_Spoke.html

Well, if he orders from Rose Bikes the Alpine spokes are only about 8 cents each more than the Competition. It's hard to make a case against the beefier spokes at those prices. Of course, you're right that the Competitions would be fine.

I've never used Alpine III spokes, but I understand they are thicker at the bend so you need to make sure they will work with your hubs. I assume they would work with ultegra hubs, but I don't really know for sure. I'm positive Competition spokes would work.

My go-to source and my go-to spoke choice.

They'll work. Where the threads are rolled the spokes are actually a skosh larger in diameter. If the threads will fit through the hub flange hole, the fatter elbow will also snugly fit.

With rims that light, those heavy duty spokes offer nothing but heavier wheels and lighter wallet. Do yourself a favor and use 2.0/1.8 or 2.0/1.7 double butted spokes.

Thank's everyone! The info is fantastic. I had only chosen the Apline IIIs because it was the best price I found. The DansComp is even better since it includes the nipples.

You probably won't find any cheaper AlpineIII spokes than those at Rose. Their price is below the wholesale price for the same spoke here in the US. You do have a shipping charge to add in...about $11 if I recall correctly...but that's still cheaper than wholesale.

As to length, going to a 298mm is a little short. It'll be tough to get the spoke buried as far as it needs to be in the nipple. It's might work but you'll probably have more thread showing than optimal. I would suggest you use brass nipples over aluminum just in case. Aluminum works better if the spoke is fully buried in the nipple. If they are too short, the spoke is more prone to breakage at the nipple.

If you haven't bought your parts yet, you could always look into another rim with a smaller ERD. For example, the Alex DA22 is about the same price as the Sun but has an ERD of 593.9mm vs 610mm for the Sun. You would need 291mm (292mm in reality) spokes instead of 300mm spokes.

I would still argue for the Alpine III spokes. Most people have never built with them and don't understand the advantages of using them. They aren't significantly heavier but they are significantly stronger. They are perhaps overkill for the front but at the price Rose sells them for, why not go for strength? And, at roughly $0.50 each, it's not like they are going to lighten your wallet too much anyway.

This article sums up nicely why you should use them. I build all my wheels...from loaded touring bike to lightweight racing bike to dual suspension mountain bikes...with them and have for about 20 years now. There's no downsides and a very good upside to using them.

I have already purchased the rims so this is what I am going with. I am going to hold off buying the spokes for a bit. I am currently reading "Professional Guide to Wheelbuilding" and with the information from that book I can obtain all the measurements myself instead of using the rim/hub selections out of the spoke calculator apps. Assuming the measurements come out to needing the same length spokes and I do decide to go with the Alpines could a longer nipple work? For example a 14mm nipple with a 298mm spoke instead of a 12mm nipple and a 299mm spoke?

I realize some of this is probably bordering on common knowledge for most of you but this is my first time through this and I don't have any history to rely on. I don't have a frame to put these wheels into but I will eventually find the correct vintage frame for them. If I go with the Alpine's I have a stronger wheel in case I pick up a touring frame. The downside there is I picked a pretty narrow rim and it may not be the best fit for a touring frame either.

It doesn't work that way. Longer nipples are for better access by the wrench on thicker rims, or with washers. Continue reading the book and lots of answers will come. Lots of stuff you probably haven't thought about yet as well. You'll enjoy gaining the info.

The Alpine III are overkill IMO. A well built wheel with 14/15/14 spokes could last you a gazillion years and fifty bazillion miles. Would the Alpine IIIs last longer? Probably. But why? Higher priced, more freight, nipples are extra money, no custom lengths, heavier. For what benefit? A wheel that outlasts your great grandchildren? It's like taking a 3/4 ton pickup truck to the market to pickup a head of lettuce.

You have all the cool tools now. Just build these "normal" wheels with these "normal" rims and "normal" spokes. Get your feet wet in the building. Later....when you want to build a touring bike....build wheels with rims, hubs, and spokes designed for touring.

My 2 cents

No. In the front wheel:

With 298mm spokes you risk broken nipples if ERD was based on spokes ending at the nipple slot bottom and the calculator did account for stretch.
With 300mm spokes you risk running out of threads if ERD was based on spokes ending at the nipple top and the calculator did not account for stretch.

Buy your rims, insert spokes in opposite holes, thread nipples to the slot bottoms, measure across the elbows using a caliper, and add double the spoke length. Repeat 90 degrees away. If the numbers don't match do the two 45 degree increments between those. Average. That's ERD.

Drop that into spocalc.xls which doesn't account for spoke stretch.

For spokes 1.8mm (15 gauge) in the butted section subtract 0.5mm front and rear drive side. For 1.5mm (17 gauge) take off 1mm front and DS, 0.5mm NDS.

Use judgement. A spoke more than 1mm shorter than that number won't make it through the spoke bed, will load the nipple in tension, and the nipple may break (will break if it's aluminum). A DT spoke 2.5mm longer with a DT 12mm nipple will run out of threads.

If spocalc.xls calls for 299 and your choices are 298 and 300, round up to 300 to end at the top of the nipple because rounding down puts you 1mm below the slot. When the calculator spits out 298.3, truncate and use 298.



You have about -1mm, +2.5mm of tolerance assuming the ERD measurement was aiming for the nipple slot and calculator accounts for spoke stretch.

If it was aiming for the nipple top and accounts for stretch, it's -2mm, +1.5mm

Aiming for the nipple top not accounting for stretch, it's -2.5mm, +1.0mm

With spokes coming in 2mm increments, rounding 1mm in the wrong direction risks problems. Measure then use a calculator where you can see the formula so you know whether it's accounting for stretch under tension.

No, because nipples are weaker than spokes.

You'll be fine. Don't obsess over 1 mm.

I have a set of VO touring hubs and CR18 rims that have been sitting in my basement for a while waiting for me to build them up. [MENTION=21724]cyccommute[/MENTION] already convinced me in another thread quite a while ago to use Alpine III's for those wheels. I didn't realize the recommendation was to use those spokes for ALL wheels.

The last time that you broke a spoke, where did it break? Most times it's right on the bend. Alpine III use a little more material on the bend.

If 14/15/14 spokes aren't breaking for you, the external material isn't going to do anything for you. Strong enough is strong enough. OTOH the cost and weight difference is trivial so, if you're not sure, why not use the Alpine III spokes.

I can't remember ever breaking a spoke. I'm pretty easy on equipment and replace things way before they have a chance fail. That's why I'm building a set of wheels for a bike that already has a perfectly good set of wheels.