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Crazy or not so crazy?

Old 11-23-17, 01:16 PM
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Crazy or not so crazy?

if you had a vintage steel frame with nice Dia Compe cantilever brakes set for a 27" rim, but you wanted to go to an 8 sp cassette, would you ask your LBS to lace up a 130mm to a 27" rim?

(I could also replace the brakes with some Tektros and just get a 700 wheel...in fact, the brake bridge is already drilled for calipers...)
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Old 11-23-17, 01:36 PM
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for 8spd, I'd go with a 135 hub, and widen the frame
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Old 11-23-17, 01:48 PM
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The question might be better phrased as "how much investment into a nearly obsolete tire size is right?"


My answer is "depends". If the bike is a daily rider, will see a lot of use for many years forward and might be one ridden in groups then NO. If the bike is a sentimental throwback and not where the weekly endorphins come from then SURE, if you have the $ why not. Andy.
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Old 11-23-17, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by xenologer View Post
for 8spd, I'd go with a 135 hub, and widen the frame
that's a possibility, but I have no problem with a 10sp cassette on a 130mm wheelset on an old 126mm frame. The hub slides right in without needing a cold set.

but the bike in question already has a triple crank, so an 8 speed is more than enough. I'm running a 7 speed FW right now, which is fine (I'm no racer!) but the axle is bent, and the races are not primo, so that kicks off the crazy question...
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Old 11-23-17, 02:41 PM
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27" to 700c. How is your tire clearance? Is this bike going to want big tires and fenders? Do you want the bigger choice of tires that comes with 700c? Would a touch of quicker steering be beneficial for this bike? (Slight loss of trail from dropping the bike down 8 mm and slightly lighter and smaller radius wheels,whence less inertia and easier to start turning.)

Do you like the braking you have now? (And would your current calipers work with the smaller wheels? I had my bike made with the canti bosses set midway between 27" and 700c. The bike had never seen 27" and the small mismatch has never been an issue. Throw in a 700c wheel and take a look.)

Sorry, this is all questions and no answers. But this is your bike, not mine. I have turned quite a few bikes into 700c from 27" and had my Peter Mooney built as compromise so I could do either. (Which way we were going to go wasn't entirely obvious in 1978. Even less that 700c would be available in the boonies.)

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Old 11-23-17, 10:01 PM
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Obviously you took the time to post so it seems like something you want to do.

I think the answer lies in whether you have, or can find a high enough quality 27" rim. If you can get the rim you want, sure. It's not like lacing up a wheel is a major investment. Probably less hassles than trying to go to 700c.

John
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Old 11-23-17, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by geezerwheels View Post
that's a possibility, but I have no problem with a 10sp cassette on a 130mm wheelset on an old 126mm frame. The hub slides right in without needing a cold set.

but the bike in question already has a triple crank, so an 8 speed is more than enough. I'm running a 7 speed FW right now, which is fine (I'm no racer!) but the axle is bent, and the races are not primo, so that kicks off the crazy question...

a wider 135 hub makes a stronger wheel, since the tall 8/9/10spd freehub body takes up proportionally less space
lets the wheel be more symmetrically dished.
a 130 with a 8+freehub body is pushing things. and having the larger diameter 27" rims doesn't help.
Remember, 135 spacing was invented precisely to make room for 8spd gearing. Dropping down to 130 with 8 is stepping backwards.

if you want to do a 130 hub, then consider a 7speed freehub (not to be confused with 7spd freewheel) They still exist. and the dishing asymmetry won't be so extreme.


it's a steel frame, I'd just bend it permanently "cold setting" to take a 135....
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Old 11-24-17, 07:43 AM
  #8  
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Remember, 135 spacing was invented precisely to make room for 8spd gearing

This is news to me, at least in the road bike world. When Dura Ace 8 speed was released, it was 130 spaced, and it's still very common today up to and including 11 speed.


Not saying 135 isn't a stronger wheel, but would not consider using a 130 'going backward' by any means.
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Old 11-24-17, 07:54 AM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by xenologer View Post
for 8spd, I'd go with a 135 hub, and widen the frame
Why? 130 mm is just fine for 8+speed on a road bike. The OP's frame is now 126 and, as he noted, a 130 mm hub is easy to fit in so why go wider? The theoretically "stronger" 135 mm spacing is more of an academic improvement than a necessity. Nearly all of the current road frames are still 130 mm and only disc braked frames have gone to 135mm and that's to clear the nds disc.

If the current cantilevers can be readjusted the needed 4 mm lower, I'd buy a pair of 700c wheels for that bike. As Andy noted, 27" is really an obsolete size with limited rim and tire options.

Last edited by HillRider; 11-24-17 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 11-24-17, 10:00 AM
  #10  
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here's the quandary.

I made a lot of assumptions about this bike when I bought it, almost sight unseen: a 1988 Fuji Saratoga. What I was looking for a cruiser--long wheel base, tall head tube, mounting points for various panniers. The paint was really nice, it had an all original accushift drive train, etc. I rode it in the parking lot and it shifted ok. Tires were shot, but no big deal...The owner made bold claims about how it was ready to roll--you could see and feel that the moving parts had been serviced...

but when I got it home and really started into it, I had really just bought a frame. the headset is brindled, the BB growled, the front wheel bearings were rough, the chain skipped in the two smallest cogs.

I ordered some new Panaracers, new Koolstop salmon pads, put on some parts I had hanging around--some Shimano 8sp barcons, a new hyperglide 7sp FW, a Sora RD. New 9sp chain. New BB.

and why stop with the new FW and chain? So I removed the stock oval rings and put on a new set of Sugino rings.

but then I noticed the rear axle was bent. It doesn't seem to affect the shifting, but now that I had so much that was new, what might otherwise be a tolerable flaw makes me crazy.

I could just end my misery (and yours, too) by putting on an almost new Weinman - Quanta 27" x 126mm. But then it would not match the nice old front wheel I salvaged from one of my Motobecanes. I could put on my set of Super Champion -- Campy 700's, and get some more rubber, and put on a set of rim brakes that are gathering dust.

But then what to do about the new Panaracers and brake pads?

so that's it in a nutshell....
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Old 11-24-17, 02:30 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
This is news to me, at least in the road bike world.
Mountain Bikes
well, I guess you can get away with it if its a road bike.


I've had to true 130/8spd wheels tho, and I'll say the spoke tension unbalance gets really uncomfortable.
serious concerns about the non-drive spoke having early death from fatigue, alternately worry about driveside spokes being tight enough to strip nipples
often need to use spoke freeze to prevent the nds side from loosening; which while is commonly accepted practice, I've always seen as a kludge.
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Old 11-25-17, 11:13 AM
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If the axle is bent, why not just replace the axle? (and bearings, if needed)
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Old 11-25-17, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by xenologer View Post
well, I guess you can get away with it if its a road bike......

I've had to true 130/8spd wheels tho, and I'll say the spoke tension unbalance gets really uncomfortable.
serious concerns about the non-drive spoke having early death from fatigue, alternately worry about driveside spokes being tight enough to strip nipples
often need to use spoke freeze to prevent the nds side from loosening; which while is commonly accepted practice, I've always seen as a kludge.
We can more than "get away with it". Road bikes have been using 130 mm spaced wheels since the late '80's and wheel durability has been just fine. All of those are theoretical considerations you list are just that, theoretical, and really don't matter in the practical world.

I have a 10-speed 130 mm Dura Ace hub laced 32H 3X to a Mavic CXP33 rim with over 40,000 miles on it and it's still true and in routine service. I also have a pair of low spoke count (16F, 20R) Shimano WH-R560 wheels, rear spaced 130 mm, with over 30,000 miles in routine use and in great condition. Neither of these wheel sets have ever broken a spoke, cracked a rim or come out of true. What more do you think I should expect from wider spacing?
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Old 11-25-17, 12:46 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by bicyclridr4life View Post
If the axle is bent, why not just replace the axle? (and bearings, if needed)
Bruce Sawtelle, proprietor of Takoma Bicycles, just took me to his junk pile in the basement of the shop. He pulled an axle out of a taco'd wheel...now to see if the bearings mate up...

How much did he charge me, you might ask. Nada, Zilch, Nuttin. Thanks Bruce
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Old 11-25-17, 06:18 PM
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i am as confused as these 2 with the 135mm comment. don't see what that has to do with anything.

AFAIK the only reason 135mm exists is because MTB hubs have extra/larger seals over the bearings

Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
This is news to me, at least in the road bike world. When Dura Ace 8 speed was released, it was 130 spaced, and it's still very common today up to and including 11 speed.


Not saying 135 isn't a stronger wheel, but would not consider using a 130 'going backward' by any means.
Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Why? 130 mm is just fine for 8+speed on a road bike. The OP's frame is now 126 and, as he noted, a 130 mm hub is easy to fit in so why go wider? The theoretically "stronger" 135 mm spacing is more of an academic improvement than a necessity. Nearly all of the current road frames are still 130 mm and only disc braked frames have gone to 135mm and that's to clear the nds disc.

If the current cantilevers can be readjusted the needed 4 mm lower, I'd buy a pair of 700c wheels for that bike. As Andy noted, 27" is really an obsolete size with limited rim and tire options.
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Old 11-25-17, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by geezerwheels View Post
here's the quandary.

I made a lot of assumptions about this bike when I bought it, almost sight unseen: a 1988 Fuji Saratoga. What I was looking for a cruiser--long wheel base, tall head tube, mounting points for various panniers. The paint was really nice, it had an all original accushift drive train, etc. I rode it in the parking lot and it shifted ok. Tires were shot, but no big deal...The owner made bold claims about how it was ready to roll--you could see and feel that the moving parts had been serviced...

but when I got it home and really started into it, I had really just bought a frame. the headset is brindled, the BB growled, the front wheel bearings were rough, the chain skipped in the two smallest cogs.

I ordered some new Panaracers, new Koolstop salmon pads, put on some parts I had hanging around--some Shimano 8sp barcons, a new hyperglide 7sp FW, a Sora RD. New 9sp chain. New BB.

and why stop with the new FW and chain? So I removed the stock oval rings and put on a new set of Sugino rings.

but then I noticed the rear axle was bent. It doesn't seem to affect the shifting, but now that I had so much that was new, what might otherwise be a tolerable flaw makes me crazy.

I could just end my misery (and yours, too) by putting on an almost new Weinman - Quanta 27" x 126mm. But then it would not match the nice old front wheel I salvaged from one of my Motobecanes. I could put on my set of Super Champion -- Campy 700's, and get some more rubber, and put on a set of rim brakes that are gathering dust.

But then what to do about the new Panaracers and brake pads?

so that's it in a nutshell....
Have you tried a 700c wheel in the bike? The cantis just may adjust to accommodate the slightly smaller diameter.
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Old 11-26-17, 09:21 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Moose View Post
Have you tried a 700c wheel in the bike? The cantis just may adjust to accommodate the slightly smaller diameter.
not well...even rotating the eccentric bushings to the minimum, and sliding the wheel to the back of the dropouts, the pads would be hitting the rim too steep. and because the frame mount studs include a spacer for the brake return springs, modern cantis would probably not fit right.

plus, I don't mind the 27" inch rims--and I just bought new rubber for them, dangit. For a steel frame, it rides pretty harsh, so I got 1-1/4" wide Pana's...at 85 or 90 psi, the ride is pretty nice, sorta like an old Olds 98...
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Old 11-26-17, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
The question might be better phrased as "how much investment into a nearly obsolete tire size is right?"
I've wrestled with this question, and have decided that I draw the line at tires and brake pads -- the consumable stuff. I'm willing to put new tires on a bike that's already built up with good 27" wheels, because they're guaranteed to eventually wear out anyway. But I won't build a new 27" wheel. I won't buy brakes for a 27" bike unless they can accommodate switching to 700c in the future. Eventually all of the 27" wheels will be swept out of my fleet, but it might take years to happen, because wheels last a long time.
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