Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Alfine 11 question

Reply

Old 12-03-17, 03:18 PM
  #1  
Phlorida 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 234

Bikes: 17 Spot Acme, 14 Lynskey Peleton

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Alfine 11 question

I purchased a Spot Acme that came with the Alfine 11 IGH about six months ago. The hub performs flawlessly except in gears 10 and 11. Going downhill (in Florida that is down a small bridge decline) both gears freewheel. On the flat, gear 10 engages but gear 11 still freewheels. Using the Gates tuning program I am right in the middle of the tension range. It seems like a tuning fix but I could use some guidance.
Phlorida is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-17, 06:51 PM
  #2  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,120

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Phlorida View Post
I purchased a Spot Acme that came with the Alfine 11 IGH about six months ago. The hub performs flawlessly except in gears 10 and 11.
That's not flawless performance. Are you sure you've adjusted the shift cable properly? The Alfine-11 gear alignment is checked in gear 6, but getting there from gear 1 may leave slack in the shift cable. Start in gear 11 and count back to gear 6 so the cable tension is increasing. I've found that this is the way to predictably get the marks to line up on my hub... can't say it's the solution to your problem, but it's worth a try. Otherwise, you might check with Aaron's Bicycle Repair (Internal Gear Hub Service). You'll enjoy the hub much more when it's shifting right!
Steve
sweeks is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-17, 08:48 AM
  #3  
Mr IGH
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,322
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Mine started hanging on shifts, I did a lube service and all is good now. It's been reported that some hubs come from the factory a little dry. Knowing what I know now, I'd do a lube service on a brand A11 hub before building the wheel. If I were you, before I did anything I'd drain and refill with Shimano factory A11 oil.
Mr IGH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-17, 10:45 AM
  #4  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 39,593

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6181 Post(s)
yea, do its first oil change sooner,

see if its burrs in the parts getting in the way , with a magnet in the drained gear oil..

[I only own a R'off *, but they wear in with the miles,]

they overfill temporarily to flush out the contaminants with a thinner cleaning oil, then re 'fill' with 25ml.

* & other off topic IGH.






.....

Last edited by fietsbob; 12-04-17 at 11:00 AM.
fietsbob is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-17, 09:21 PM
  #5  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,120

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
Knowing what I know now, I'd do a lube service on a brand A11 hub before building the wheel. If I were you, before I did anything I'd drain and refill with Shimano factory A11 oil.
Assuming you mean a brand *new* Alfine 11... that might be a little over-cautious, but couldn't hurt... except for the extremely pricey factory oil. It is possible to find 50ml of the "official" oil for a reasonable price. The oil change protocol involves draining the existing oil, installing 25ml of new oil and running the hub through the gears to "flush" out the old oil. Then the "flush" oil is drained and replaced with a further 25ml. So you need a total of 50ml.
Also needed is the hose and attachment used to drain the oil. This is a one-time purchase, and doesn't cost much. You could probably improvise something, but the oil pretty much has to be sucked out of the hub. It would take forever to drain by gravity, plus it would be a mess.

I did my first oil change using the *official* oil, but considering the expense I looked for a substitute. Long story short, I found a synthetic gear oil (Royal Purple 75W-140... link below) that has similar viscosity and costs a fraction of the Shimano oil. My hub has performed flawlessly for 5,500 miles with oil changes at about 600 mile intervals.

The drained oil always has a small amount of very fine metallic particles which can be attracted by a magnet. I believe this is normal considering all the moving parts inside the hub. It crosses my mind that I could let the used oil stand with a magnet for a long time , then re-use it... it's not like it is exposed to high temperatures or combustion by-products.
Steve

Max Gear Synthetic Gear Oil for Max Protection | Royal Purple
sweeks is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-17, 04:14 PM
  #6  
Phlorida 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 234

Bikes: 17 Spot Acme, 14 Lynskey Peleton

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Thank you all so much for the replies to this. As it turns out I needed to travel for business this week so I am in Chicago and Houston but my bike is back in Florida. My intent is to try the tension adjustment suggested (shifting from gear 11 to gear 6 is brilliant) and if that doesn’t correct the issue I will swap the gear oil. The price for the Shimano gear oil and drain kit is outrageous! The Royal Purple option is a good one.
Phlorida is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-17, 08:36 AM
  #7  
Mr IGH
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,322
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
For alternative Shimano IGH lubes I've had great success with Mobil 1 ATF. Cheap and good for over 1000HP
Mr IGH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-17, 11:41 AM
  #8  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,120

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
For alternative Shimano IGH lubes I've had great success with Mobil 1 ATF.
I considered ATF as a replacement hub oil, as I had been using it to dip the internals of my Nexus hubs. It works well. The main reason I settled on the gear oil is that its viscosity is similar to that of the Shimano oil. I reasoned that a thinner fluid might leak past the seals... my bike is a folder, and spends a fair amount of time on its side.
The reason I chose the synthetic over regular gear oil (such as hypoid) is that the synthetic is safe for "yellow metals" (copper, brass, bronze) which may be found in a bike hub (does anyone know if such metals are present?).
Steve
sweeks is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-17, 04:27 PM
  #9  
Racing Dan
Senior Member
 
Racing Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,178
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 679 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
Mine started hanging on shifts, I did a lube service and all is good now. It's been reported that some hubs come from the factory a little dry. Knowing what I know now, I'd do a lube service on a brand A11 hub before building the wheel. If I were you, before I did anything I'd drain and refill with Shimano factory A11 oil.
I have an Inter 8 that did the same thing. Bathing the internals in gear oil resolved it, but I have to redo it about once a year.
Racing Dan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-17, 12:04 PM
  #10  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 5,840

Bikes: 90/91 De Rosa, '84 Team Miyata, '82 nishiski,

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 708 Post(s)
Why cheap out on oil when it voids the warranty? and may or may not work as designed? I just don't get this.

$13.60 for 50 ml https://www.walmart.com/ip/Shimano-S...&wl13=&veh=sem
__________________
Looking for Torpado Superlight 58cm
squirtdad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-17, 01:13 PM
  #11  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 39,593

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6181 Post(s)
component warrantees are done, over, typically 13th month after purchase.
fietsbob is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-17, 07:39 AM
  #12  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,120

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
Why cheap out on oil when it voids the warranty? and may or may not work as designed? I just don't get this.
This is good advice, provided the oil is available in small quantities; 50 ml is enough for one oil change. Once past the warranty period if you (like me) plan to keep the hub for the long haul, a less expensive replacement is not unreasonable. As I've indicated, there are synthetic gear oils that work just as well as the OEM and at a fraction of the cost.

Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
component warrantees are done, over, typically 13th month after purchase.
According to this (Warranty), the warranty is two years for the Alfine hub (at least that's how I read it). I confess to not waiting for the warranty to expire before changing to a different oil, though. 5,000 miles later, still going strong!
Steve
sweeks is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-17, 02:53 PM
  #13  
Phlorida 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 234

Bikes: 17 Spot Acme, 14 Lynskey Peleton

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
A follow up to my post and another thank you for the outstanding advice. The cable was slightly out of adjustment and the lube was black. Now that Iíve ridden it with fresh lube I agree with the comments made by Mr IGH, I donít believe that the hub was full when I got the bike. The change in shifting behavior is significant and the issue with gears 10 and 11 are gone.
Phlorida is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-17, 03:20 PM
  #14  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,120

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Phlorida View Post
The cable was slightly out of adjustment and the lube was black.
The cable adjustment was almost certainly the reason for the mis-shifting, but who cares? I would change the oil after a shorter-than-usual interval for a couple more times. The drained oil should be close to the fresh color with some "sparkle" to it from tiny metallic particles. When I was using the Shimano oil the used oil still had a green tinge to it. Once I switched to the Royal Purple, the drained oil was a tan color.
Steve
sweeks is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-17, 03:52 PM
  #15  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 39,593

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6181 Post(s)
IDK about Alfine needing to be full , don't own one ..

Rohloff runs with 250ml , so its damp but not bathed in lube oil..
fietsbob is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-17, 04:07 PM
  #16  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,120

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
IDK about Alfine needing to be full , don't own one ..

Rohloff runs with 250ml , so its damp but not bathed in lube oil..
The Alfine takes 25 ml. Officially, an oil change consists of:
1) extracting the existing oil after running the hub through the gears a couple times,
2) inserting 25 ml of fresh oil as a "rinse",
3) extracting the rinse oil after running the hub through the gears a couple time,
4) inserting 25 ml of fresh oil and buttoning up the hub.

I've found that it takes a while to recover all (or most of) the oil from the hub. This is done with a syringe attached to the hub through a short hose and a metal hose barb that threads into the hub. The whole process takes about a half hour, with lots of time to do other tasks while waiting for the oil to collect at the bottom of the hub, so it's not as much of a waste of time as you might think. I've been able to recover 25 ml of oil if I'm patient enough.

250 ml seems rather a lot for a hub-sized object filled with planetary gears... just saying!
Steve

EDIT: Rohloff also requires 25 ml. https://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/use...015_03_web.pdf

Last edited by sweeks; 12-17-17 at 04:40 PM.
sweeks is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-17, 04:50 PM
  #17  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 39,593

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6181 Post(s)
Im just not reading the manual all the time..

So you guys can play gotcha. i suppose you are happier for it.


fietsbob is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-17, 04:52 PM
  #18  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,120

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Im just not reading the manual all the time..
It's that durned Metric System... what's an extra zero anyway?
Steve
sweeks is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-17, 01:08 PM
  #19  
davidad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,686
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-SG0004-02-ENG.pdf
davidad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-18, 01:45 PM
  #20  
Artmo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,434

Bikes: '06 Bianchi Pista; '57 Maclean; '10 Scott CR1 Pro; 2005 Trek 2000 Tandem; '09 Comotion Macchiato Tandem; 199? Novara Road; '17 Circe Helios e-tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Is the Rohloff threaded connection to the hub the same as for the Alfine 11?
Artmo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-18, 03:48 PM
  #21  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,176
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 482 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Artmo View Post
Is the Rohloff threaded connection to the hub the same as for the Alfine 11?
Threaded connection?? What exactly do you mean by that?
If you mean the cog mounting interface, the answer is no.
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-18, 07:52 PM
  #22  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,120

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 479 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
Threaded connection?? What exactly do you mean by that?
Dan, I think the "connection" Artmo is referring to is the part that threads into the oil change port. I seem to remember reading somewhere that they are the same size metric thread but can't confirm this.
Steve

EDIT: FWIW, the end of the Alfine oil change connector that threads into the hub has a metric M6-1.0 thread on it. I just measured mine.

Last edited by sweeks; 04-17-18 at 08:41 PM.
sweeks is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-18, 08:08 PM
  #23  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,176
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 482 Post(s)
Originally Posted by sweeks View Post
Dan, I think the "connection" Artmo is referring to is the part that threads into the oil change port. I seem to remember reading somewhere that they are the same size metric thread but can't confirm this.
Steve
Possibly. We will have to wait for him to clarify.
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-18, 05:04 AM
  #24  
Artmo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,434

Bikes: '06 Bianchi Pista; '57 Maclean; '10 Scott CR1 Pro; 2005 Trek 2000 Tandem; '09 Comotion Macchiato Tandem; 199? Novara Road; '17 Circe Helios e-tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
Threaded connection?? What exactly do you mean by that?
If you mean the cog mounting interface, the answer is no.
Sorry, I wasnít very clear: I meant the threaded connection for the oil drain on the hub. Thanks.
Artmo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-18, 07:53 AM
  #25  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 39,593

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6181 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Artmo View Post
Is the Rohloff threaded connection to the hub the same as for the Alfine 11?
recent edition R'off, made a change, to a snap ring splined carrier, it threads on,

but after that cogs replacement is as simple as the 3 speed, just not as cheap a cog..


both uses plastic syringes and a screw in hose..

shimano alfine 11 owners manual http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-S7051-02-ENG.pdf

Last edited by fietsbob; 04-18-18 at 08:09 AM.
fietsbob is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service