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Should I be worried about headset stack height??? Also, adjustment issue.

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Should I be worried about headset stack height??? Also, adjustment issue.

Old 12-13-17, 05:36 PM
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Should I be worried about headset stack height??? Also, adjustment issue.

i just installed a (BRAND NEW) headset... and fork, and it looks like my top tube is not level (it's sloping downward toward the seat tube) now of course it could be the fork.... but could it be the headset?

to be specific, is the difference in headset stack heights enough that it could have a significant impact on ride quality?

for those who happen to have a billion numbers and specs memorized, I believe it's a Peugeot PGN-10 frame. the fork i put on it is a sloping crown fork with a significant amount of tire clearance. i don't have the original fork so i guess the question is somewhat hypothetical.

SECOND QUESTION:

i noticed while adjusting this headset, it gets a LOT tighter once i tighten down the top nut. keyed washer is in place and the race is not rotating when i tighten. is this bad or symptomatic of a bigger problem? i know this typically happens to some extent, i have adjusted a fair share of threaded headsets, this goes from being almost wobbly loose to way too tight. could my fork have bad or different threads?

Last edited by bike_galpal; 12-13-17 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 12-13-17, 05:49 PM
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If your headset goes from too losses to too tight , I would check the bearings and make sure you have the right size and number of them in the cups . as far the slop in the top tube , it not the headset but the rake of the fork . that in itself can cause the bike to handle funny .
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Old 12-13-17, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bikeman715 View Post
If your headset goes from too losses to too tight , I would check the bearings and make sure you have the right size and number of them in the cups . as far the slop in the top tube , it not the headset but the rake of the fork . that in itself can cause the bike to handle funny .
this was extremely unhelpful and i can only conclude that you took all of about 3 seconds to actually read my post
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Old 12-13-17, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
this was extremely unhelpful and i can only conclude that you took all of about 3 seconds to actually read my post
I was going to answer your headset question, but then I saw this response to how bikeman tried to help you. So I'll pass.

Consider taking the free advice offered with some grace.
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Old 12-13-17, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
I was going to answer your headset question, but then I saw this response to how bikeman tried to help you. So I'll pass.

Consider taking the free advice offered with some grace.
i said new headset. why on earth would i have the wrong bearings?
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Old 12-13-17, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
i said new headset. why on earth would i have the wrong bearings?
Was the box hermetically sealed, do you have other headset parts nearby that could have been mixed with the new ones, do you have the bearings oriented correctly? It doesn't matter - bikeman correctly answered the fork height question and you didn't have the common courtesy to acknowledge that.

Given your description, you don't know how to adjust a headset correctly, which is likely the whole problem. Maybe someone else will want to tell you how to do it, but given your behavior I hope not. Get a maintenance book and figure out how to use headset wrenches.


So let me be clear - at this point you do not have enough knowledge about bicycle mechanics to talk down to anyone who offers you help. Read a book if you can't talk to people.
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Old 12-13-17, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Was the box hermetically sealed, do you have other headset parts nearby that could have been mixed with the new ones, do you have the bearings oriented correctly? It doesn't matter - bikeman correctly answered the fork height question and you didn't have the common courtesy to acknowledge that.

Given your description, you don't know how to adjust a headset correctly, which is likely the whole problem. Maybe someone else will want to tell you how to do it, but given your behavior I hope not. Get a maintenance book and figure out how to use headset wrenches.


So let me be clear - at this point you do not have enough knowledge about bicycle mechanics to talk down to anyone who offers you help. Read a book if you can't talk to people.
excuse me, i don't want any help if it's gonna take me twice as long to read someones bad grammar and english. maybe you should learn that you don't need to stand up for people you don't know on the internet and make a bigger deal out of stuff than it is, when the simple fact is, "help" isn't always helpful.

there are plenty of folks on this forum. you don't want to help me, or you can't do it in a comprehensible way, then don't post in my thread. bye.
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Old 12-13-17, 06:58 PM
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my very specific question of "is the difference in headset stack heights enough that it could have a significant impact on ride quality" has yet to be answered.

I understand that fork rake, headset stack height, as well as differing axle to crown measurements could all have an impact on the issue i'm having.

i would like a comprehensive answer on how much these different things can effect the issue i'm having. i thought i made this clear. suffice to say "it not the fork" is not the answer i'm looking for
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Old 12-13-17, 07:06 PM
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also @Kontact you're talking down to ME WAY more. and you need to stop. i know how to adjust a headset, i also know for a fact that if threads are worn, badly cut or incorrect, then any nut will fit more loosely on the threads and could easily cause this problem.

i know what i'm doing, i have about 80% of my answer before i posted this. and by the way i CAN still adjust it to the right bearing tension even with the problem.

take you patronizing tone elsewhere
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Old 12-13-17, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
excuse me, i don't want any help if it's gonna take me twice as long to read someones bad grammar and english. maybe you should learn that you don't need to stand up for people you don't know on the internet and make a bigger deal out of stuff than it is, when the simple fact is, "help" isn't always helpful.

there are plenty of folks on this forum. you don't want to help me, or you can't do it in a comprehensible way, then don't post in my thread. bye.

Then why post a question on a forum if you can't be bothered by how some write.


As far as "you don't need to stand up for people you don't know on the internet". Really? It that's really your attitude then I'm sad for you. If that's not how you really feel then it's you who needs to go, saying one thing and feeling something else. Andy (who signs his real name)
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Old 12-13-17, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post

take you patronizing tone elsewhere
You initiated the bad vibe. You do it in other threads too. And it really sucks because the first response was a sincere effort to help.

1. 1 or more of your bearing retainers is probably in upside-down. That will cause your adjustment difficulties.
2. the fork you bought is too long, axle-to-crown, and that's why your front end is too high.
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Old 12-13-17, 07:43 PM
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Perhaps Kontact isn't familiar with the experience of having random men assume that he doesn't know what he's talking about all the time. It happens.

To address your question, here's a link to an article on the Sheldon Brown web site that discusses the effect that changing fork length has on handling: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/forklengths.htm

The same math/reasoning applies to the headset change. Only the lower stack height comes into play here, since that's the only place that can affect the head tube angle. To save you the trouble of clicking through, it says that a difference of around 9mm causes a head tube angle change of around 0.5 degrees, which the authors views as the point where you'd notice it. Odds are that your lower headset stack isn't going to change by that much.

As for the too loose/too tight problem, I've had that issue when I put caged bearings in upside down, but given that you're working on a Peugeot I'd suspect mismatched threading or crown race diameter first. Depending on the age of the bike, the fork could very well have French threads and a 26.5 or 27.0 crown race diameter (as opposed to ISO 26.4). Also, some French forks use a different type of keyed washer. Look at the steerer and see if it has a flat spot rather than a slot for the washer. You'd have probably noticed that when you installed the headset, but if you used a standard keyed washer and it fit, it might have more play than usual.


Edit: Oops, I missed that you were using a replacement fork. Chances are everything in the paragraph above doesn't apply.
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Old 12-13-17, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SquidPuppet View Post
You initiated the bad vibe. You do it in other threads too. And it really sucks because the first response was a sincere effort to help.

1. 1 or more of your bearing retainers is probably in upside-down. That will cause your adjustment difficulties.
2. the fork you bought is too long, axle-to-crown, and that's why your front end is too high.
i dunno dude.... i just get frustrated when i ask for a lot of info and people expect to answer all my questions in less than 20 words...... you know what i mean?

i've been pretty frustrated by people lately. i guess i wont use these forums unless i have to.

also the fact that i "initiated a bad vibe" doesn't mean i deserve to be told i don't know jack about bikes. that's called respectability politics, and it's the same logic that says i can justifiably burn your house down if you say something about my mother. i was honestly just voicing my frustration here. my question was not cut and dry like it was treated.

Last edited by bike_galpal; 12-13-17 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 12-13-17, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Perhaps Kontact isn't familiar with the experience of having random men assume that he doesn't know what he's talking about all the time. It happens.

To address your question, here's a link to an article on the Sheldon Brown web site that discusses the effect that changing fork length has on handling: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/forklengths.htm

The same math/reasoning applies to the headset change. Only the lower stack height comes into play here, since that's the only place that can affect the head tube angle. To save you the trouble of clicking through, it says that a difference of around 9mm causes a head tube angle change of around 0.5 degrees, which the authors views as the point where you'd notice it. Odds are that your lower headset stack isn't going to change by that much.

As for the too loose/too tight problem, I've had that issue when I put caged bearings in upside down, but given that you're working on a Peugeot I'd suspect mismatched threading or crown race diameter first. Depending on the age of the bike, the fork could very well have French threads and a 26.5 or 27.0 crown race diameter (as opposed to ISO 26.4). Also, some French forks use a different type of keyed washer. Look at the steerer and see if it has a flat spot rather than a slot for the washer. You'd have probably noticed that when you installed the headset, but if you used a standard keyed washer and it fit, it might have more play than usual.


Edit: Oops, I missed that you were using a replacement fork. Chances are everything in the paragraph above doesn't apply.
this is the response i was looking for. especially the part about men. (no but seriously) thank you, sincerely.

i feel like so many responses i get here hold a double standard of like, "you haven't read every book on bike mechanics, have you" but then also "why do you need to know more than my opinion? my opinion is correct"

anyway, i really appreciate that about stack height, it's exactly what i wanted to to know. i wanted to rule out that problem. seems folks here don't know the scientific method! process of elimination.

i think the fork MIGHT be italian and have a 26.5 cause i ended up sanding the inside of the 26.4 crown race a little and having to hammer it really hard to get it on. its a perfect fit with 1" quill stems. but italian forks never had different threading, right? my experience with this headset in general has led me to believe that it's just not very high quality
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Old 12-13-17, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
it's gonna take me twice as long to read someones bad grammar and english.
Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
this is the response i was looking for. especially the part about men. (no but seriously) thank you, sincerely.

i feel like so many responses i get here hold a double standard of like, "you haven't read every book on bike mechanics, have you" but then also "why do you need to know more than my opinion? my opinion is correct"

anyway, i really appreciate that about stack height, it's exactly what i wanted to to know. i wanted to rule out that problem. seems folks here don't know the scientific method! process of elimination.
i think the fork MIGHT be italian and have a 26.5 cause i ended up sanding the inside of the 26.4 crown race a little and having to hammer it really hard to get it on. its a perfect fit with 1" quill stems. but italian forks never had different threading, right? my experience with this headset in general has led me to believe that it's just not very high quality
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Old 12-13-17, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
i dunno dude.... i just get frustrated when i ask for a lot of info and people expect to answer all my questions in less than 20 words...... you know what i mean?

i've been pretty frustrated by people lately. i guess i wont use these forums unless i have to.

also the fact that i "initiated a bad vibe" doesn't mean i deserve to be told i don't know jack about bikes. that's called respectability politics, and it's the same logic that says i can justifiably burn your house down if you say something about my mother. i was honestly just voicing my frustration here. my question was not cut and dry like it was treated.
I didn't say you know nothing about bikes, I said that you aren't using the correct method to adjust a threaded headset, and you are unlikely to learn the right way from other humans with your condescending attitude.

None of which has anything to do with your gender or mine - especially when no one is aware of my gender. This isn't gender politics, just how to get a useful answer from people who actually have good ones. You can at least hold your tongue if the suitability of a response doesn't immediately suit you.
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Old 12-13-17, 08:18 PM
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Glad that you have found your help.

But to be honest, I don't think he was trying to be rude. He took the time out to try to help you, is what I saw. It could also be interpretation.

Please remember, not everyone's primary language is English.

I also want to point out that even if it were, not everyone can write perfectly, either. There are a LOT of grammar mistakes in this thread. So please, lets all try to keep this in mind, okay?

Thank you
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Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
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Old 12-13-17, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Siu Blue Wind View Post
Glad that you have found your help.

But to be honest, I don't think he was trying to be rude. He took the time out to try to help you, is what I saw. It could also be interpretation.

Please remember, not everyone's primary language is English.

I also want to point out that even if it were, not everyone can write perfectly, either. There are a LOT of grammar mistakes in this thread. So please, lets all try to keep this in mind, okay?

Thank you
yeah, i get it that was a low blow with english.

i guess i'd just rather someone didn't help at all, if all they're willing to put into it is a few seconds.
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Old 12-13-17, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
yeah, i get it that was a low blow with english.

i guess i'd just rather someone didn't help at all, if all they're willing to put into it is a few seconds.
Sure, perhaps he didn't give a more detailed synopsis but it at least gave you an idea of what could be happening. It was a start.

It's better than leaving you in the dark, frustrated, right?

Now you know which direction to head.
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Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
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Old 12-13-17, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Siu Blue Wind View Post
Sure, perhaps he didn't give a more detailed synopsis but it at least gave you an idea of what could be happening. It was a start.

It's better than leaving you in the dark, frustrated, right?

Now you know which direction to head.
check the first line of my post.

i already knew it could be the fork. i was never in the dark, and this thread has been more frustrating than the problem itself.
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Old 12-13-17, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Maybe someone else will want to tell you how to do it, but given your behavior I hope not.
you know what, i don't need to learn the "right way" from anyone if it takes the amount of butt kissing you're expecting.
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Old 12-13-17, 08:42 PM
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Taking the bike into a shop to have a mechanic look at it will set you back a few dollars and this was a few people helping you out for free. That's what this place is all about. I think they were being nice because they could have really, just ignored you or given you wrong advice just to be jerks.

You are very lucky to have people like this to help put your mind be at ease and lead you on the way to adjustment for the headset and understanding why the top tube is now sloping. I think we are ALL very lucky that we have each other, don't you agree?
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Old 12-13-17, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
you know what, i don't need to learn the "right way" from anyone if it takes the amount of butt kissing you're expecting.
Failing to be insulting or entitled isn't "butt kissing". No one even asked you to be polite, just not so damn rude.
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Old 12-13-17, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
check the first line of my post.

i already knew it could be the fork. i was never in the dark, and this thread has been more frustrating than the problem itself.

Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
i just installed a (BRAND NEW) headset... and fork, and it looks like my top tube is not level (it's sloping downward toward the seat tube) now of course it could be the fork.... but could it be the headset?
The bold part made me think that you were not sure if it's the headset. Perhaps others felt the same.


Originally Posted by bike_galpal View Post
excuse me, i don't want any help if it's gonna take me twice as long to read someones bad grammar and english. maybe you should learn that you don't need to stand up for people you don't know on the internet and make a bigger deal out of stuff than it is, when the simple fact is, "help" isn't always helpful.

there are plenty of folks on this forum. you don't want to help me, or you can't do it in a comprehensible way, then don't post in my thread. bye.
Frustrating, yes it shows.

Maybe this just isn't the place for you, then.
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Old 12-13-17, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Siu Blue Wind View Post
Taking the bike into a shop to have a mechanic look at it will set you back a few dollars and this was a few people helping you out for free. That's what this place is all about. I think they were being nice because they could have really, just ignored you or given you wrong advice just to be jerks.

You are very lucky to have people like this to help put your mind be at ease and lead you on the way to adjustment for the headset and understanding why the top tube is now sloping. I think we are ALL very lucky that we have each other, don't you agree?
something i have been realizing quite often in my life recently is..... to use a metaphor: if i ask my friend if they can loan my 1000$, i'd prefer that they just say "no" rather than hand me a few pennies.

i wouldn't say we're ALL luck to have each other haha.

i've worked as a mechanic so it stands to reason some of them are worse at it than me (also.... i've known some who are worse than me)

i think the problem lies in that i don't see this section of the forum for problem solving. i see it as a place to learn and discuss and pool info. i'm not asking someone to hand me a fix. i want all the details. honestly what i've learned here is unlikely to have a big effect how i deal with this problem. i just like to hear all the opinions. and i pretty much never enjoy it when people phrase things as "THIS is your problem, no question about it! haven't seen the bike, but i know for sure" because obviously you can never know 100% without seeing it yourself. so that draws into question the validity of everything theyre saying.

also, my mind is more at ease when it's tinkering and learning. i was never worried or panicked about my problem.

anyway. i'm not arguing. this is just where i'm coming from. i've had a rough day. i'd appreciate it if you could close the thread.

Last edited by bike_galpal; 12-13-17 at 08:59 PM.
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