harshbarj

I had a wheel built at the LBS and I keep breaking spokes at the nipple. First one broke less than 2 weeks in and another breaks virtually every second week. I'm now on my third broken spoke. To me it looks like the wheel was improperly built as most of the spokes have a good bend or sudden curve in them near the nipple. To the point they look like they could break just sitting there. I don't build wheels(yet) but my understanding was the nipple should be positioned to be in the same direction as the spoke, not a few degrees off. Sorry I don't have a picture, but I could get one in about 2 hours (at work atm).

I had the wheel built with a sturmy archer RXL-RD5, which is a rather large hub. I ended up using a 700c double wall rim with eyelets. They insisted on 2mm spokes, which may also be a problem on a utility bike, long term.

Thanks!

CliffordK

Take the wheel back to the builder.

Some rims have Right/Left nipple holes. Some don't.

So, if your holes are right/left (either location, or drilling direction), and they got it built backwards, then you could have serious issues.

If it was done wrong, I'd insist on all new spokes.

BTW, what size of rim is this? 700c? 20"?

Ghrumpy

This is probably what happened. That hub has pretty wide flanges, so the spoke hole angle error at the rim is going to be increased compared to a "regular" hub, even on a 622/700C rim. Butted spokes will not help if this is the problem.

If the spoke hole angle mismatch isn't the problem, the spokes should get a "correction" in them before final tensioning. I like to do that right after lacing, in fact. If you bend the spokes a couple inches above the threads so the nipple comes straight out of the rim, the bend will help move the stress away from the threads even after the wheel is tensioned.

SquidPuppet

99.9% chance that you are correct. I'd bet it's a rim that is intended to be cross laced (NDS rim hole to DS hub flange) and the builder laced it the "normal" way. I've seen that, and it looks exactly as OP has described, nasty.

And I agree, I'd demand all new spokes and nipples. I'd also want to take a GOOD look at the nipple beds on the rim to check for damage, since they were being vigorously yanked in the wrong direction.

harshbarj

I have had many wheels built over the last 10 years, and this is the first time I have ever seen spokes bend after the nipple. I'll look at the rim and see if the model number is there and see if if has right left holes. I'll also try and grab a photo as I have never see spokes bent like this, and it could be important for others to know what to look out for.


I have this same place building another wheel which should be done next week. Needless to say I'll be looking over it carefully. My bicycles are my cars and I can't be having this.

SquidPuppet

Some rims have right/left holes but the spokes are intended to leave the rim and go to the opposite side of the hub. If you look at this photo you can see how the nipple bed aims the nipple to the opposing flange. And you can imagine how bad things will be if the spoke is sent to the wrong side.

Retro Grouch 

How many crosses?

Ideally you'd like for the spokes to be tangent at the hub flanges and radial at the rim. You can't have both so every wheel is a compromise. If you have a hub that has unusually tall flanges, the spoke angle relative to the rim is increased. My bet, without seeing your wheel, is that reducing the number of crosses will solve your spoke breakage problem.

FWIW, I have a personal friend who owned a Bike Friday triple that had an IGH rear wheel. From the beginning it broke spokes at the nipple at an alarming rate. He had the wheel replaced by Bike Friday and later rebuilt by another wheel builder but the spokes kept breaking. He brought it to me and I rebuilt the wheel with fewer crosses. Problem solved!

harshbarj

Just one at the center, If I am recalling correctly. In about 45-50 minutes I am on my lunch break and I'll snap a photo.

Retro Grouch 

That doesn't sound right to me. I'm betting on 3 or even 4 because that's what's common. The first cross is usually way up at the hub flange.

cyccommute 

While I agree that it could be a "right hand" rim, those are incredibly rare. I've only ever seen one since I started building wheels around 1986 and I've built dozens of wheels.

It's more likely that the builder picked the wrong first spoke hole and laced it wrong. Depending on the way it was built, they may have rotated the hub the wrong way after radially lacing half of each side.

I would agree that new spokes are warranted. Perhaps a new rim as well.

Bill Kapaun

Number of spokes can be an issue.
If doing a 32H 3X, I wouldn't be surprised to see this problem with a "large diameter" hub. Maybe even 2X?? I just don't have any experience with IGH's to say.
1X in the middle probably also has another X just inside the hub flange which IS counted.
The brand/model of the rim might also help. If a common rim, maybe someone can take a pic of their nipples.

harshbarj

Ok. The rim is a sun-ringle cr18
https://sun-ringle.com/road/rims/cr18/


Excuse the grime, it's winter and the streets are a mess.

harshbarj

So 2 and 3 if you count the overlap at the hub.

jj1091

I ran into this "right hand" rim on my last rebuild with Rigida AL 1320's, a fairly common rim. Took me a minute to figure out what was wrong with the lacing.

Ghrumpy

Hard to tell.
A little closer shot of one or two of the nipples would be better.

Dan Burkhart 

Turn the wheel so the valve is a the 6 o'clock position. Stand to the side of the bike (does not matter which side) and look down at the valve. The first spoke to the left of the valve should go to the flange on the other side.(away from you) If this is not the case, as I suspect looking at what I can see of your photos, it was laced incorrectly.
This rule is nearly universal although I have seen rare exceptions. CR 18 rims would certainly not be an exception to this rule.

cyccommute 

A "common" rim from the 1980s. I'm sure there are some NOS rims out there but more modern rims are seldom "right handed".

The one right hand rim I encountered was probably a Rigida.

harshbarj

The spoke to the left does indeed go to the far side as it should. So they at least got the spokes in the right place. Still not sure why the spokes have so much bend in them. Can't be a coincidence that this is the first time I have seen this and it's also the first time I have had a rash of spokes breaking at the nipple.

cyccommute 

If I've got my spacial arrangement right, the CR18 on that link is a normal "left hand" rim, i.e. the first spoke hole to the left of the valve stem is above the center line of the rim.

Your picture shows the spokes running the wrong way away from the rim but what does it look like around the valve stem? The spoke around the valve stem should look like this

DSCN0370 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

They should be parallel to each other and parallel to the valve stem. It looks to me like the builder of your wheel didn't flip the rim before rotating the hub so the spokes are twisted the opposite direction from what they should be.

Ghrumpy

The one thing that seems universal is that half the world understands left-hand and right-hand drilling one way, and the other half understands it the other.

I'm not saying I'm right, but what seems to be the most logical definition to me is that by RH I mean: from the drive side, with the valve at the bottom of the wheel, the spoke next to the valve on that side of the wheel is to the right side of the valve.

So in that sense, lots of old ballooner rims were left-hand drilled. And Sun Rims in the '80s and '90s mostly seemed to be left hand drilling, IIRC. But I just checked my CR-18s and they're right-hand.

CliffordK

I don't think I have any unlaced Sun CR18 rims.

My test for spoke directionality is pretty simple with unlaced rims.

Simply drop two (or perhaps four) successive spokes and nipples in the holes. Then lean the rim each direction, and it should be obvious if the spokes are staggered (directional) or not (not directional).

I think other people have something like a cone or something that works similarly. There was a topic on it a while ago.

As far as rear rims, I hadn't thought about them being different, although I have used "Off Center" rims on the rear, which in theory helps improve dishing and evens out dishing. Otherwise, for the most part I'd expect front and rear to be similar.

Anyway, I tested two Sun Rims:Anyway, it may be difficult to test your rim if the wheel was special order. If it is a commonly stocked rim, then your builder should be able to test other rims to see if the sockets/eyelets are directional. If they are, then I'd strip the wheel and rebuild.

CliffordK

Another thought. You haven't mentioned what cargo you're carrying, but there are 2.3/2.0/2.3 butted spokes that should be considered if they work in your hubs and rims.

harshbarj

On this rim, the holes are in line with each other. They are not staggered as every other rim I have seen. Just noticed this.

harshbarj

Right now nothing. All breaks have been just with me on the bike.

The LBS I used seemed very against 2.3 spokes. I even asked and he said it was unnecessary, 2.0 would be strong enough (I know this not to be the case in my normal use, even 2.3 is not enough). I normally have places drill out the holes and use 3mm straight gauge spokes. Few seem willing to do this anymore. In the summer I can haul hundreds of pounds.

CliffordK

I woudn't go 100% by the placement of the spokes around the valve.

I've read of reports where people had purchased batches of the same brand/model of rims, and some started one direction, and others started the other direction.

If the holes are drilled directionally, then your wheel probably is assembled wrong. If the holes are not drilled directionally, then it wouldn't make a difference.

Post a direct side view of your wheel showing at least the valve and the hub.

It is hard to tell from your photo, but it appears as if the two spokes around the valve cross. That is considered VERY BAD FORM. It isn't a critical error, but it would indicate an amateur wheel builder built up your wheel, which could also indicate that they never checked the drilling of the spoke nipple holes.