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Derailleur Hanger

Old 03-17-18, 10:46 PM
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Derailleur Hanger

I have a mid '60 Japanese manufactured Royce Union with stamped horizontal drop outs. I would like to weld the derailleur hanger to the drop out rather than bolting it on. I don't think this should be too hard to do. I plan to offset the hanger so that it would be in the same position as if it was bolted on.

I will be using a mig with shielding gas. The paint has been stripped from the frame and will be completely repainted.

Is there any reasons that I should not do this?
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Old 03-17-18, 11:42 PM
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I would assume the dropout is somewhat flexible, so it might not be extremely secure, but otherwise should work.

An option would be to machine the slot full-length in a "claw" and braze it on top of the dropout. It would be nice if one had a step on the back side in it to match your dropouts, but the step would have to be precisely machined.
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Old 03-17-18, 11:47 PM
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Thanks Clifford. I think that would work, however, I only have the mig at this point.
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Old 03-18-18, 03:47 AM
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Welding it on makes it much more difficult to replace, when it breaks.
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Old 03-18-18, 07:30 AM
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Seems like a lot of effort for something a bolt-on claw would solve for a fraction of the time and work.
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Old 03-18-18, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule
Thanks Clifford. I think that would work, however, I only have the mig at this point.


MIG tends to be a bit crude for nice frame work, very few steel frames are made with a MIG torch. I would be aware of the brass joints and how much heat I let get to them.


As said already there's no mechanical reason why this won't work, but as always the devil is in the details. Andy
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Old 03-18-18, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule
...Is there any reasons that I should not do this?
There are a number of bolt-on derailleur hanger adapters for horizontal dropouts, some less than ten bucks.
Simpler than welding, doesn't damage the original dropout, and doesn't require a donor steel derailleur hanger.
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Old 03-18-18, 10:22 AM
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TIG is what is used on thin steel of bicycles, MIG * is better on heavy steel like farm equipment.

* But the equipment is, admittedly, cheaper.
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Old 03-18-18, 12:55 PM
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Ok, good points. I already have the hanger. I preferred that it is attached to the drop out. You guys are right in that it can easily be attached to with the bolt. MIG should not be a problem generation too much heat as long as I take my time.

But you have me thinking. So my other secret motivation is that I am putting a S-A AW on here and I am concerned about the length of the axle. If I remember correctly, I have the long axle already, so, it may not be a problem.

I also have a 126mm drop out width and I believe that the bike it is on, a late '70's or early '80's Windsor, is wider. I did have some problems with it on the Windsor. I though that I added nuts or washer to space it out. It was a long time ago.

I want to make a decision while the frame is bare. I might have to take the wheel off the other bike and try it before making a final decision. Thanks for your opinions. I may end up using the bolt on hanger.
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Old 03-18-18, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule
Oo my other secret motivation is that I am putting a S-A AW on here
The AW IGH does not require any sort of derailleur, hanger or no.
Why bother?

-Bandera
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Old 03-18-18, 01:16 PM
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yea a half link can get your chain length to within a 1/2" , so you should be able to pull the wheel back in the horizontal dropout, adequately.
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Old 03-18-18, 02:25 PM
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I wonder if the Op will be running a der with a 2 or 3 cog on driver set up, making a 6 or 9 speed arrangement. Having done a few of these over the years I hope the cogs used are not common SA AW ones as the shifting will be poor due to the tooth profile. I have sharpened the tops of SA cogs to improve shifting, tedious but I had the time back then.


I strongly suggest test fitting before any frame changing stuff is done. Strongly suggest.


The couple of times I did this the cheap way I just fitted two SA cogs back to back on the standard driver, making sure the snap ring fully seated. There was no need for added axle length in each case although the bikes did use thin plate drop outs and not thicker forged ones. The first time I did this was with a Cyclo conversion driver and their specific cogs. The three cogs did end up needing a longer axle. I don't remember the length or the frame's spread. That was nearly 40 years ago. Andy
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Old 03-18-18, 09:17 PM
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So, I should have explained this more fully, however, I was really only seeking opinions on the derailleur hanger.

I have a old Windsor frame that I set up in the early '80's with a Sturmey Archer AW and two sprocket with a derailleur. It worked great, however, when I rode it recently, I realized that this racy frame was not what I wanted any more since I am much older than when I put this bike together. I was looking for a suitable frame. Then I came into a old Royce Union. I couldn't find a better candidate for a price I was willing to pay. Yea, I am thrifty.

It had the required horizontal dropouts, so I plan on switching everything over. But there are some difference between the two bikes. And I am concerned about how much engagement of the nut I get on the axle. This is why I was thinking of welding the derailleur hanger on.

BTW the bike always shifted well and at the time I put it together, it was truly index shifting.

I tried to load a picture of the Windsor, however, I am having problems.
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Old 03-18-18, 09:38 PM
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Gonna try to load the pictures again.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Windsor 01.JPG (840.5 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg
Windsor R Hub 1.JPG (946.1 KB, 62 views)

Last edited by Velo Mule; 03-18-18 at 10:36 PM. Reason: Add pic.
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Old 03-19-18, 07:24 AM
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If you will be using a derailleur setup with the 3 speed hub, horizontal dropouts are not needed, the derailleur acts as a chain tensioner. A bolt on derailleur hanger on thin stamped steel dropouts would not be significantly thicker than the forged dropouts on your other bike

Last edited by alcjphil; 03-19-18 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 03-19-18, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule

Is there any reasons that I should not do this?
No, none at all.
There is also no reason why you should do this either.
But it's your time and money.
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Old 03-19-18, 09:08 AM
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Might wrap a wet rag or other heat sink around the brazed dropout joint to reduce heat transfer.
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Old 03-19-18, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
If you will be using a derailleur setup with the 3 speed hub, horizontal dropouts are not needed, the derailleur acts as a chain tensioner. A bolt on derailleur hanger on thin stamped steel dropouts would not be significantly thicker than the forged dropouts on your other bike
You are correct. I don't know why I wrote that. I was considering using a Trek 700 hybrid frame with a vertical drop out, however, I wanted to keep the frame from the same era as the original build. I will be going to a SunTour Vx by the way.
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Old 03-19-18, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule
I wanted to keep the frame from the same era as the original build. I will be going to a SunTour Vx by the way.
I used that set-up on my '57 AW w/ 3 cog Cyclo set-up for many years reliably on two town bikes.
Be sure to check the cage spacing for the wider 1/2 X 1/8 chain required for the AW vs 1/2 X 3/32 derail spec, a flat washer/spacer may need to be fitted, or not.

-Bandera
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Old 03-19-18, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera
I used that set-up on my '57 AW w/ 3 cog Cyclo set-up for many years reliably on two town bikes.
Be sure to check the cage spacing for the wider 1/2 X 1/8 chain required for the AW vs 1/2 X 3/32 derail spec, a flat washer/spacer may need to be fitted, or not.

-Bandera
Good point Bandera. I thinned the cogs so that it fits a derailleur chain. It has been working great for, I was going to say years, however, it is decades now. Of course, I have a garage full of bikes so this one seldom gets ridden anymore.
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