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Jobst Brandt "The Bicycle Wheel"

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Jobst Brandt "The Bicycle Wheel"

Old 05-23-18, 10:35 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork
I have consistently rebutted Jobst's claims (often repeated by others) that the hub of a conventional bicycle wheel "stands on the spokes", and that reduced tension in the spokes is "compression."
It appears to me that you're arguing against a strawman of your own making (that spokes are ever in compression) rather than anything Jobst said. His point was that as you apply an increasing load on the hub from the weight of the bike/rider on the dropouts this downward force is compensated not by an increase in tension of the spokes above the hub but rather by a decrease in tension of the spokes at the bottom of the wheel. So the downward force of the load is balanced by a tension change in the bottom spokes and therefore we can say that the load is supported by this change in tension of the bottom spokes.
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Old 05-23-18, 11:00 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Kontact
I have no idea what arguments you've made elsewhere. Should I?

I'm not making any claims as much as trying to decode your abstruse "explanations". Between the responses on this thread on PMs I've received, I don't think anyone has found your arguments reasonable.


I would suggest that if you actually want to promulgate your point of view, you're going to need to actually offer cogent, specific explanations and rebuttals without reference to unseen prior threads and without the vague put downs. All of that stuff just makes it sound like you are BSing rather than speaking from any sort of expertise or logic.
No need to rely on my arguments, here or elsewhere. Others have also thoroughly countered and corrected Jobst's misstatements. The truth doesn't really need to be promulgated -- those who design structures live with the results while Jobst frequently ran away from his results. The reader is free to test any of my statements of engineering concepts (positive and negative) and free to discuss them as well if anyone is inclined to do so rather than just react.

However, repeating the thorough counter explanation of Jobst's errors every time his claims get mentioned is a waste of time: the true believers can't accept them. Those others who are interested in finding out how a bike wheel really works can easily do so.

Last edited by AnkleWork; 05-23-18 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 05-23-18, 11:00 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by noglider
I remember Kunich. Some people just want to argue. It was a good place for negative role models.
I've been on some rides with Tom and don't remember anything other than pleasant interactions with him.
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Old 05-23-18, 11:37 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork
No need to rely on my arguments, here or elsewhere. Others have also thoroughly countered and corrected Jobst's misstatements. The truth doesn't really need to be promulgated -- those who design structures live with the results while Jobst frequently ran away from his results. The reader is free to test any of my statements of engineering concepts (positive and negative) and free to discuss them as well if anyone is inclined to do so rather than just react.

However, repeating the thorough counter explanation of Jobst's errors every time his claims get mentioned is a waste of time: the true believers can't accept them. Those others who are interested in finding out how a bike wheel really works can easily do so.
Duder, you're making an argument against the title to a book chapter, not a specific principle. Well, you aren't really making an argument but implying that someone, somewhere has.

I think those who have actually said something make more convincing points.
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Old 05-23-18, 11:42 PM
  #55  
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I have failed to personally measure increase in the tension of top spokes, on a rear wheel, when a rider sits on the bike. Experiments so far with 36 spokes and a 24 spoked rear wheels. Marked top and bottom spokes, so the same ones are measured loaded and unloaded. Signifficant decrease in bottom spoke tension, without a measurable increase in top spoke tension.

DT Swiss seem to have managed to measure it:
https://www.blog.dtswiss.com/spoke-tension/
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Old 05-24-18, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Duder, you're making an argument against the title to a book chapter, not a specific principle. Well, you aren't really making an argument but implying that someone, somewhere has.

I think those who have actually said something make more convincing points.
I'm responding to statements made by Jobst in public and to his subsequent public spin control. You can find all that publicly repeated many, many times by his sycophants. Now you know.
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Old 05-24-18, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork
I'm responding to statements made by Jobst in public and to his subsequent public spin control. You can find all that publicly repeated many, many times by his sycophants. Now you know.
Okay, but there are some people (me) that agree with what his book actually says in that chapter, despite not being a sycophant.

Which is another word you chose to be impolite.
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Old 05-24-18, 08:25 AM
  #58  
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@AnkleWork, you do not know what I have not studied. The revenge is that he is dead and you are still alive, and you can choose to be happy about that if you want.

@prathmann, I have no doubt the fellow is pleasant in person. I'm also quite capable of being gratuitously argumentative online, which is not how I am in person. I'm sure you're familiar with this phenomenon.

And let us remember:
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Old 05-24-18, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Brandt ... does not say "the hub stands on its spokes", he said "the wheel stands on its spokes."
This is a really important point that should not be glossed over. I admit I responded to the straw-man quote that the "hub stands on its spokes" as if that were something that Brandt said, which he didn't. Gotta be careful about terminology. My bad there.

However, my attempt not to get caught up in the "standing/hanging" debate was based on something other than it being "right" or "wrong," or having anything particular to do with Brandt himself. Unfortunately AnkleWork does not appear to be interested in anything but those. Fine, but not with me.

Originally Posted by Kontact
And maybe that's why people get so confused about the point he is making about how the change in tension from weight never makes the hub dangle because all the spokes maintain positive tension, which means hub never has the opportunity to hang from anything. When the wheel is weighted, the structure acts identically to a solid wheel - it compresses on the bottom. And that has practical considerations when it comes to wheel design that the "hangin' from the spokes" perspective does not.
Exactly.

My comments were to the point that the analogy used to describe something is not the thing itself. Both the "hanging" and "standing" analogies are simple attempts to explain a complicated thing. They are not the thing itself, which behaves as it does regardless of what you "believe" about it.
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Old 05-24-18, 09:26 PM
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...Jobst Brandt threads are a lot like Grant Petersen threads. I can't get enough of them.
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Old 05-25-18, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...Jobst Brandt threads are a lot like Grant Petersen threads. I can't get enough of them.
That is super interesting.
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Old 05-25-18, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
That is super interesting.
...yeah. Nice to see you, too. You just have no idea.
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Old 05-25-18, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott
Yeah I miss those days. The level of arguing was at such a higher level than in here.
...testify !
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