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Spokes: Does rim hole count need to match hub hole count?

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Spokes: Does rim hole count need to match hub hole count?

Old 06-17-18, 07:55 AM
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Spokes: Does rim hole count need to match hub hole count?

For example, if my hub has 28 holes and rim has 32 or 36, would it be worth my time to skip every 8th or 9th when lacing?
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Old 06-17-18, 08:33 AM
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NO! Skipping holes is not advised.
It's not advised anyway and when it's done it's on the hub part (32H rim to a 36H hub.. is a doable combo but still not advised)
Skipping holes on a rim is a big red DON'T!

Rim holes are done in according to their stiffness. So a 32H rim really needs 32spokes. While hub flanges are generally the same and plenty strong.. so there is usually no difference in hub flanges between 36h and 32h but be aware that for special low spoke count the hub flange are reinforced and specially designed for 16h or low 20's spokes.. so i don't recommend anyone lacing a 22h rim to a 36h hub.

Now back at your problem. It's not doable and a safety hazard.
Get matching numbers for hubs and rims. (especially if you have the 28h hub, find a 28h rim)
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Old 06-17-18, 09:41 AM
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I wouldn't be so negative WRT the structural results especially with the rim. The same rim extrusion are found with widely different spoke hole counts and they work well enough to keep offering different spoke counts with the same rim. But what will be an issue is the spokes actually laced into the wheel not being at even distances apart from each other around the rim ("spoke density" changes around the rim). So some portions of the rim will have more spokes and another will have less. balancing spoke tensions against rim trueness might prove to be a challenge. In general I don't recommend miss matched hubs and rims. Asking the question suggests that the OP isn't very experiences in wheel building and suggesting a lacing arrangement that requires greater skill and care to both create and then maintain isn't a good thing, IMO. Andy
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Old 06-17-18, 10:30 AM
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To put the problem another way:

A 28 hole rim always has spokes something like 4" apart. A 32 hole rim has the spokes maybe 3.5" apart. But if you skip a hole on the 32 hole rim, now you have an unsupported section of rim that is 7" apart AND has a big hole in the middle of that span. The rim would be very likely to break at that unused spoke hole because of the long span and how the spoke hole weakens it.

Wheelbuilding is not that cheap once you factor in spoke cost and labor. Hubs and rims are relatively cheap in comparison to the total cost, so please spend the extra bucks and replace your hub or rim. Front hubs are particularly cheap.
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Old 06-17-18, 03:41 PM
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You would also have a whole bunch of different spoke lengths to lose track of.
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Old 06-17-18, 03:44 PM
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Unless you're dealing with bizarre OEM hubs/rims with odd spoke counts you cannot source replancements for, if at all.....don't do it. Build your wheels right.
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Old 06-17-18, 05:16 PM
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...yes.
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Old 06-18-18, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by eric044
For example, if my hub has 28 holes and rim has 32 or 36, would it be worth my time to skip every 8th or 9th when lacing?
Good advice so far, especially not to skip holes on the rim. But that's not what you were asking. Skipping holes on the hub isn't a structural problem. It's a length problem, as previously noted, and solving for the odd lengths will either be a rather complicated mathematical problem or a trial-and-error one. If you're up for it, and you have a spoke threader, go for it.
There are non-standard patterns that allow mismatched hub and rim drillings. Most are crow's-foot style or crossed drive/radial non-drive.

Even building a Xh rim to a 2Xh hub (for example, 16 to 32) creates that problem. The offsets between hub flange holes mean you will need two different lengths for each side of the hub. And it won't be perfectly symmetric.
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Old 06-18-18, 11:50 AM
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I have a rear wheel built by Bike Friday ,
it has a 36 hole IGH, and a 349-16" 24 hole rim .

2 cross , they do skip 1 hole, in using 2/3 of them.

Math: it divides evenly 2x 12 vs 3x 12..

more holes in hub , your math won't have an even number

FWIW, my Brompton has a 28 hole hub and rim.


want to be clever?
a 36 hole hub and rim can be divided by 3
(crows foot pattern 3R, 3L, groups of 6)

or normally, groups of 4, 2R, 2 L




...

Last edited by fietsbob; 06-18-18 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 06-18-18, 01:54 PM
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I bought an old Cannondale Bugger trailer that had 27" wheels. The trailer originally came with 20" wheels and had 28H hubs but the PO had laced these to 36H steel rims. Worked, but I would not advise doing this on a bike wheel.

Also, I knew of a guy who wanted an extremely aero wheel so he had someone build him a 36H hub to a 36H rim using only 18 spokes. He should have heeded all the warnings not to do this and now probably wishes he'd never ridden such a setup.
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Old 06-18-18, 05:21 PM
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The spokes I removed had 3.5mm nipples. I have checked freespoke.com and see that the flange openings vary by maybe .3mm, but I'm not sure of the effect, nor am I sure about the size of the opening on the rim. Likely that .1mm - .3mm differential on nipple or spoke diameter won't make much of a difference in lacing? How do I measure length of j-bend spokes? Could be difficult to shop for spokes and nipples. For example, if buying separately, should the nipples be 12mm or 16mm? Will the threading and nipples generally match, withstanding the term gauge?

Last edited by eric044; 06-18-18 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 06-18-18, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by eric044
The spokes I removed had 3.5mm nipples. I have checked freespoke.com and see that the flange openings vary by maybe .3mm, but I'm not sure of the effect, nor am I sure about the size of the opening on the rim. Likely that .1mm - .3mm differential on nipple or spoke diameter won't make much of a difference in lacing? How do I measure length of j-bend spokes? Could be difficult to shop for spokes and nipples. For example, if buying separately, should the nipples be 12mm or 16mm? Will the threading and nipples generally match, withstanding the term gauge?
What are you trying to accomplish? I don't understand the purpose of these questions about things that aren't normally a concern in wheelbuilding.
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Old 06-19-18, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Asi
NO! Skipping holes is not advised. ...Skipping holes on a rim is a big red DON'T! ... your problem. It's not doable and a safety hazard. Get matching numbers for hubs and rims.
+100

If you used tractor rims that were steel, and about 15 lbs each, you might get away with it. For bike rims, no, never ever. Find rims that match the hub hole count, or vice versa.
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Old 06-19-18, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by eric044
For example, if my hub has 28 holes and rim has 32 or 36, would it be worth my time to skip every 8th or 9th when lacing?

Math, it just does not divide equally..

Math is not an Opinion.



..
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Old 06-19-18, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
Math, it just does not divide equally..

Math is not an Opinion.
.
Every time you bring up math, it sure seems like an opinion because you always get it wrong.

A 28 spokes divides by 4, just like most hub and rim drillings. So four sets of 7 spokes with a skipped spoke between each set works out on a 32 hole rim.
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Old 06-19-18, 10:27 AM
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32 and 28 dont come out even it's 1.1428571 : 1
36 : 28 1.2857142 : 1

where 36 hub, 24 rim is 3x 12 vs 2x 12... that has proven successful...
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Old 06-27-18, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Every time you bring up math, it sure seems like an opinion because you always get it wrong.

A 28 spokes divides by 4, just like most hub and rim drillings. So four sets of 7 spokes with a skipped spoke between each set works out on a 32 hole rim.
Mathematically, yes. From a strength/stiffness/durabilty/practicality standpoint, no.

One other angle (pardon the upcoming pun). Spoke holes are often offset alternately. If one used the "four sets of seven, with a skipped spoke" arrangement, two of the groups of seven would have the spoke reaching across the rim with a more extreme angle than necessary.
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Old 06-27-18, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz
Mathematically, yes. From a strength/stiffness/durabilty/practicality standpoint, no.

One other angle (pardon the upcoming pun). Spoke holes are often offset alternately. If one used the "four sets of seven, with a skipped spoke" arrangement, two of the groups of seven would have the spoke reaching across the rim with a more extreme angle than necessary.
I'm certainly not suggesting building a wheel with skipped spokes. But I do have a wheel I built that is 2:1, and I don't see the problem with such a wheel, even though that doesn't "divide equally". My rim does not have alternating angled holes.
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Old 06-27-18, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
I'm certainly not suggesting building a wheel with skipped spokes. But I do have a wheel I built that is 2:1, and I don't see the problem with such a wheel, even though that doesn't "divide equally". My rim does not have alternating angled holes.
How does that work? I've seen some of the Bontrager and Campy wheels that have spokes in groups of 3. Or do you have two spokes on the freewheel or brake side for every one on the NDS?

I've seen rims with perfectly centered holes, and rims with alternating holes. I think that the latter are more common now.
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Old 06-27-18, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz
How does that work? I've seen some of the Bontrager and Campy wheels that have spokes in groups of 3. Or do you have two spokes on the freewheel or brake side for every one on the NDS?

I've seen rims with perfectly centered holes, and rims with alternating holes. I think that the latter are more common now.
https://fulcrumwheels.com/en/technol...ies/two-to-one

I used an evenly spaced rim with a 16/8 hub.
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Old 06-28-18, 08:20 AM
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they get rims made for their own use in those wheels

36 being divisible by 4 And 3, have been built in groups of 3 per side
2 cross and a radial spoke between them .. group of 6

Seen a 32 spoke Rohloff had 16 more holes drilled , (for a cargo bike), and using a 48 spoke rim
the extra spokes radial also,, "crow's foot" it called..

(definitely not covered by the german company warranty after that)





....
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Old 06-28-18, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
32 and 28 dont come out even it's 1.1428571 : 1
36 : 28 1.2857142 : 1

where 36 hub, 24 rim is 3x 12 vs 2x 12... that has proven successful...
That's just a barrage of nonsense. Please, stop calling it math. Your 36 and 24 is 1.5 : 1. This also "does not divide evenly". How is "1.5 : 1" better that the above???

As long as two numbers are not co-prime, there will always be a way to "divide them evenly" somehow in your strange sense of "divide evenly".

28 and 32 is 7x4 and 8x4, so in your own terms we just have to use 7/8 of the holes and everything will "divide evenly".
28 and 36 is 7x4 and 9x4, so in your own terms we just have to use 7/9 of the holes and everything will "divide evenly".
This is in no way different then your "24 and 36".

Nevertheless, this is not a good reasoning to justify skipping holes in the rim.
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Old 06-28-18, 06:41 PM
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I have a Bike FridayPocket Rocket I have ridden since 1995 and that bike has always had 24 hole rims on 36 hole hubs. I have even ridden it accross the USA and have had zero wheel or spoke problems with it in all these years of my ownership. Roger
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Old 06-29-18, 09:41 AM
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+1, on that ^ ^ holes skipped in the Hub flanges , not the rim..
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