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36h, 20" Drum Brake Wheel

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36h, 20" Drum Brake Wheel

Old 10-18-18, 06:21 PM
  #1  
bajajoaquin
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36h, 20" Drum Brake Wheel

Okay, thanks to the help I have gotten here, I'm building up to my first wheel build on my cargo bike. It's got a 20" front wheel, and I'm building a new one with a Sturmey-Archer drum brake dyno hub (XL-FDD, if you're interested). I haven't bought a front rim yet, but it will likely be a Sun Ryno Lyte 20" or similar. There are several online caclulators, for spoke length, but one thing stopping me is the lacing pattern. With a 109mm pitch circle diameter, I don't think this is a good candidate for a 3-cross pattern, right?

Is there a resource to help me understand how to choose a pattern? Or is there an easy answer someone can tell me?
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Old 10-18-18, 07:09 PM
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I'm pretty sure you're right. Maybe X2 is?? I haven't built large hub wheels or that small of a rim. Besides, with 36, there isn't much room for the spoke wrench.

If you have a piece of cardboard, circumscribe 2 circles representing the 2 diameters. The largest is only going to be about 16" diameter
Lay a few spokes down with your desired cross and look at the angles generated at the rim and how badlM the spoke lays over the head of an adjacent spoke.
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Old 10-18-18, 09:58 PM
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Possible 2X, but 1X may be viable as well.

But with 1X, no interlacing.

Wheels By Fleming Bicycle Wheels Documents - mrrabbit.net

Download the spreadsheet, view the t-chart tab.

=8-)
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Old 10-18-18, 10:57 PM
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Hmmm...

Here is how I would approach the problem.

Flange size: 109mm.

2 nipples are about 65mm apart (holes 1&3 along rim)
4 nipples are about 130mm apart (holes 1&5 along rim)
6 nipples are about 195mm apart (holes 1&7 along rim)

Looking at the "parallel" spokes...

So, in 3 cross. counting along one flange.

Spokes 1&8 along the flange come out on roughly opposite sides of the flange. They'll be pinched in A LOT going from about 90mm to about 65mm (one spoke between them).

Spokes 1&10 come out on the true opposite sides of the rim. They'll go into holes 1&7 along the rim (so from about 109mm to 195mm).

So, since your true tangent is actually pointing outward somewhat, it is a relatively stable construction.
So, now looking at 2 cross.

Spokes 1&6 from hub go to holes 1&3 along the rim. So, from about 70mm to about 65mm. Barely pinched in.

Spokes 1&8 from the hub go to holes 1&7 along the rim. So, from about 90mm to about 195mm. Pushed out quite a bit.
Ok...

I think you want the first 3 spokes (1 & 3 along rim) to be as close to roughly parallel as possible.

In this case, going with the 2x, they will be pretty close to parallel. Slightly pinched in.

The more of an angle those spokes are at, the more of a bend on the nipple you have, and the weaker the junction to the nipples will be. You would really have to re-drill the nipple holes to keep from breaking spokes.

You'll have slightly better braking strength at the hub to have the spokes from opposite sides of the hub (spokes 1&10 along flange) to be as close to parallel as possible.

So, by going 2x, those from opposite sides of the flange are quite a bit non-parallel.

However, I think strong nipples may well trump those tangents.

So, while I might be convinced to go either way, I think I'd go with 2x.
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Old 10-19-18, 06:18 AM
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One of the on-line spoke calculators (Spoke Calc?) that I've used has that information or at least a clue for determining how many crosses. I'm thinking 1 or 2.
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Old 10-29-18, 10:30 AM
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Thanks for the suggestions. I'm looking at the spokechart from Wheels by Fleming, and some of the entries don't make sense to me. The instructions don't give sufficient detail for a novice.

# of spokes this side: Presumably 18?
# of xings this side: I thought that this chart was here to help me understand that very question, but presumably 2?
Then on line 13, it says

Rim Diameters
============ ======== ==== ==== ==== ====
Hub description Diameter Offset 0.00 0.00 0.00

Presumably the hub description, diameter and offset are there to act as headers for the data below. But what do I enter into the rim diameters? If I enter values into the zeros, it recalculates teh values on the individual hubs.
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Old 10-29-18, 10:34 AM
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in over your head?

May I suggest getting Bike Friday to build the wheel for you?
the Oregon Company uses Drum brake hubs on their Tandems ,
so they have that down solid, by practice repetition.
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Old 10-29-18, 11:01 AM
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Your rim diameter will be the ERD (Effective rim diameter). Take two spokes and mipples (and nipple washers if using) put into opposite holes. Measure between nipples, then add length of nipples. I measure the entire length of nipple including slot, but that may be 1mm long if one considers spoke stretch. Or plan to round down.

good calculators allow for a lot of asymmetry, so allow right and left data to be independent.
Measure the hole circle in the flanges and offsets the best you can. Harbor Freight should have basic digital calipers for cheap.

your instructions will tell you what measurements go where. Typically all in millimeters.
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Old 10-29-18, 12:36 PM
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Bike Friday would have been a good idea, but I already have the hub here. If I can't figure this out, I might look into it.

The other comments really don't answer my question (not to be difficult, sorry). I know what ERD is and the others. It's really just about what values to put into the spreadsheet to get the calculations to come out.
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Old 10-29-18, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bajajoaquin
Bike Friday would have been a good idea, but I already have the hub here. If I can't figure this out, I might look into it.

The other comments really don't answer my question (not to be difficult, sorry). I know what ERD is and the others. It's really just about what values to put into the spreadsheet to get the calculations to come out.
I think a couple people have said that 2-cross or 1-cross is acceptable. If it were my wheel, I'd build it 2-cross and interlace the spokes. In either case it's going to be massively strong- good if you want to load your cargo bike with cinder blocks.
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Old 10-29-18, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bajajoaquin
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm looking at the spokechart from Wheels by Fleming, and some of the entries don't make sense to me. The instructions don't give sufficient detail for a novice.

# of spokes this side: Presumably 18?
# of xings this side: I thought that this chart was here to help me understand that very question, but presumably 2?
Then on line 13, it says

Rim Diameters
============ ======== ==== ==== ==== ====
Hub description Diameter Offset 0.00 0.00 0.00

Presumably the hub description, diameter and offset are there to act as headers for the data below. But what do I enter into the rim diameters? If I enter values into the zeros, it recalculates teh values on the individual hubs.
Exactly as interpreted:

1. "# of spokes this side" would be "18" for a 36 hole wheel. Just put it where the "0.00" is just to the right.
2. "# of crossings" would be 3, 2 or 1. Most likely, you'll be going with 2.
3. Then, way down below is where you put in the rim diameter you are using or ERD.

Notice, you don't have to use my database info for the hub. I provided one line in BOLD where you can plug in your own hub measures for diameter and offset.

If I remember this hub correctly, you'll have to do two measurements - I'm pretty sure the hub is slightly asymmetrical with a .5 to 1.0mm difference in spoke length between the two sides.

Critical in this build is to measure the diameter of the actual holes in the hub. I think they're 2.7mm, 2.8mm or even 3.0mm. That'll require a -.35 to -.5 reduction in the calculated result.

Sun Rhyno is an excellent choice...double wall, eyeleted....even the narrower version should more than suffice.

=8-)

Be aware, I have a DOS window version of a spoke calculator at the site as well...no spread sheet or data. Just raw calculation using:

spokes per side
crossings
erd
hub diameter
hub offset
hub hole diameter

Just download on the basis of your OS, 32 bit or 64 bit.

=8-)
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life

Last edited by mrrabbit; 10-29-18 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 10-30-18, 08:54 AM
  #12  
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Thank you. Iíll measure the holes before proceeding.

Your online catalog isnít loading, by the way. I was looking so I could buy spokes from you. Maybe Iíll email you directly this afternoon and see what you have available.
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Old 10-30-18, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bajajoaquin
Thank you. Iíll measure the holes before proceeding.

Your online catalog isnít loading, by the way. I was looking so I could buy spokes from you. Maybe Iíll email you directly this afternoon and see what you have available.
Thanks for the heads up, I'll have a partner do an external site test for me....just moved site to a new platform and I'm currently repopulatiing the database behind the catalog.

=8-|
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Disclaimer:

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5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 10-30-18, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit
Exactly as interpreted:

1. "# of spokes this side" would be "18" for a 36 hole wheel. Just put it where the "0.00" is just to the right.
2. "# of crossings" would be 3, 2 or 1. Most likely, you'll be going with 2.
3. Then, way down below is where you put in the rim diameter you are using or ERD.

=8-)
Sorry to be obtuse. Can I talk in terms of specific cells?
I3 is spokes per side (18)
I4 is cross count per side (2)

From there, I have an ERD of 395mm. When you say there's a place in bold for it, do you mean G13? That then gives me a spoke length of 196.5mm, in cell g17 correct? What are I13 and K13 for?


Originally Posted by mrrabbit
Notice, you don't have to use my database info for the hub. I provided one line in BOLD where you can plug in your own hub measures for diameter and offset.

If I remember this hub correctly, you'll have to do two measurements - I'm pretty sure the hub is slightly asymmetrical with a .5 to 1.0mm difference in spoke length between the two sides.
You are correct, and your offsets match my understanding. I see cell G4312 has a value of 160.44 and g4313 as 161.25. This means my actual spoke length for this hub would be 160 and 161mm? Again, columns I and K are lower values because I don't have rim diameters in row 13.

Last (for now!) if my spoke lengths are 160 and 161mm, is that close enough to mean I can get 36 of 160 or 161mm or do I need 18 of each?
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Old 10-30-18, 10:10 PM
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36 divided by 2 = 18.

a front wheel should be symmetrical

I even built disc front wheels, spokes all the same length,
just made the tension a little higher, on the side with the disc mount..




...

Last edited by fietsbob; 10-30-18 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 10-30-18, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bajajoaquin
Sorry to be obtuse. Can I talk in terms of specific cells?
I3 is spokes per side (18)
I4 is cross count per side (2)

From there, I have an ERD of 395mm. When you say there's a place in bold for it, do you mean G13? That then gives me a spoke length of 196.5mm, in cell g17 correct? What are I13 and K13 for?



You are correct, and your offsets match my understanding. I see cell G4312 has a value of 160.44 and g4313 as 161.25. This means my actual spoke length for this hub would be 160 and 161mm? Again, columns I and K are lower values because I don't have rim diameters in row 13.

Last (for now!) if my spoke lengths are 160 and 161mm, is that close enough to mean I can get 36 of 160 or 161mm or do I need 18 of each?


Okay, I assumed an ERD of 395, which is between Sun's listing of 396 for the Ryno Lite XL and my previous measurement of 394. (Ryno LIte XL is the wider version....)

Sturmey Archer says 109mm for hole to hole diameter, 28m offset and 31.4mm offset, and 14g/13g spoke compatibility. The suggests the holes are at least 2.4mm in diameter.

At 18 holes per side, and 2 cross I get:

161.56 and 162.18

Subtract .20mm from each side...

161.36 and 161.98

Off of my spoke machine, using exact measurements, I'd be going with 161.00 and 162.00 using 12mm OR 14mm standard profile brass nipples.

(Understand, boxed spokes such as DT Swiss come out 1/2 mm shorter than the specified size on the boxes label.)

=8-)
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Disclaimer:

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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 10-31-18, 07:05 AM
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I have the 70mm version of that hub on my commuting bike and love it. Had to replace the bearings at about 12,000 miles and twice had to put a bit of grease on the shoe actuator cams because of sticking. Heavy, but just the thing for an all-weather utility bike.
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Old 11-01-18, 11:05 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. Everything I've read about them seems to be positive: durable, good stopping, reasonably well made. Nobody says they're the lowest drag option, but also that they don't actually notice anything holding them back, so it's not a big deal. I don't care for the Shimano rollerbrake, and the Sanyo doesn't seem to have an internal hub option, so that really left the S-A as my only option. I could have gone and upgraded caliper brakes, but for some reason, the drum brake has always resonated with me, and the dyno/drum combo even more so.

I've just ordered a wheel, spokes and nipples from mrrabbit. Once I realized that the spreadsheet was being hosted on his sales webpage, I decided to buy parts from him as I try to support those who offer "free" help (same reason I paid more to buy my light from Peter White Cycles). Imagine my surprise when I found that his prices were extremely reasonable, so I saved money, too!

He's definitely on my recommended list and will be the first place I go in the future when buying parts. (ok, maybe the second, see below)

My original plan was to buy parts through a friend who just started a Velofix franchise, but he got delayed. Just heard from him, and he's still going to build the wheel when I get the parts in. So I won't have to come back here and open a new thread on how to fix the wheel I just built poorly.
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Old 11-08-18, 09:10 PM
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I got my parts in from MRRabbit who was extremely helpful and timely. Thank you again.

Just heard back from my friend and heís laced but not yet tensioned the wheel.
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Old 11-08-18, 09:52 PM
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Good to hear...and nice photo.

For this wheel, stress relieving will be very important...

On small wheels like this, finding a way to squeezes pairs of spokes together can be a doozy in small confines.

I use the handles of large pliers in reverse and squeeze two spokes simultaneously.

Some might recommend the spoke twist method shown at sheldonbrown.com

=8-)
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 11-08-18, 10:36 PM
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Looks nice.

Whew, a little more angled at the nipples than I had expected. Perhaps 1 cross would have been better.
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Old 11-08-18, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Looks nice.

Whew, a little more angled at the nipples than I had expected. Perhaps 1 cross would have been better.
Actually from the photo, its not bad at all. Pretty typical. Biggest concern is getting the wheel properly stress relieved - and balanced relative tension wise.

Too tight for two hand stress relieving, and too tight for most tension meters.

=8-|
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2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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Old 11-09-18, 07:33 AM
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Any suggestions on how to proceed?
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Old 11-09-18, 11:10 AM
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Just heard back from my friend and he’s laced but not yet tensioned the wheel.
you changed your mind on letting him finish the job?
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Old 11-09-18, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bajajoaquin
Any suggestions on how to proceed?
I agree that the angle at the rim is slightly iffy.

Personally, I would tension the wheel evenly by hand. It will be very tough to get the spokes to "proper" tension given that the nipples may start to bind when it's close to final tension. Once that starts to happen, stop tensioning.

As I said before- a 36-spoke 20" wheel is going to be massively strong. I bet it would be perfectly fine with 16 spokes.
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