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Torquing Amongst the Clicks on a Cassette Lockring...

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Torquing Amongst the Clicks on a Cassette Lockring...

Old 11-09-18, 03:28 PM
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Torquing Amongst the Clicks on a Cassette Lockring...

Hi Everyone,

I've been fiddling a bit with my Campagnolo cassettes, and I was looking for some advice on torquing down the lockring properly.

First off, yes, I'd definitely like to use a torque wrench, so we can dispense with the "just do it by feel" comments (even if that is sort of what I've been doing, but more on that later). I've been using torque wrenches for a while, so I'm very familiar with how they work (various types), and I definitely feel an extra bit of satisfaction and comfort knowing I've used one to tighten something appropriately (used to have a motorcycle that called for 180nm on the rear axle nut).

So here is the issue: because of the knurling on the lockring and first cog, there is a significant amount of strong clicking going on as you tighten the ring. I know this is by design, and that it's a good thing, but it's making it really hard to perceive the click of the torque wrench. Has anyone else dealt with this? I realize it should get to a point where the click of the wrench comes before any clicking from the lockring, but that makes me think it might be slightly over-torqued by that point. Is that wrong? Should I just set the wrench to 38nm (rather than 40), and wait until it starts clicking before the lockring?

Thanks everyone
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Old 11-09-18, 03:49 PM
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you just have to get used to how your tool works. if you need a visual or audible beep then go digital torque wrench
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Old 11-09-18, 04:18 PM
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There's a much larger window of acceptable torque than you seem to think. You haven't over-torqued it unless you've started to strip the threads.

And IMO 40Nm is overkill here, especially given the presence of the knurling. The only jobs the lockring has is to hold the cogs together and not come loose. I bet if you did it up to 25Nm, there'd be no problem.
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Old 11-09-18, 07:45 PM
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To check, just apply the wrench again; if it clicks without the lockring ratcheting you have sufficient torque.
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Old 11-09-18, 08:16 PM
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Some would disagree, but I've always gone with the notion that 40nm is nominal. plus or minus 10 percent is where I've always put the actual minimum/maximums. Then there is the issue of tool accuracy which properly adjusted for would narrow the torque window.

Having said all that, the ratchet on the lockring would torque down, then release a bit with each click. So What I do is convert 40nm to foot pounds, (29 ft/lb), bump the setting up just a touch to so setting the wrench to 30-32 ft/lb so just shy of actual maximum, then torque until the wrench clicks off, then loosen, re-torque and go just a single notch on the cassette lock-ring to ensure overcoming the lockring feature.

We do lots of torqing in avation and this is the closest I think I can come to an actual real torque to mfr intentions. My cassette cogs don't dig into the freehub body so I think it's adequete enough with out exceeding intent.

Last edited by base2; 11-11-18 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 11-10-18, 09:51 AM
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It's normal to feel the notches in the lockring, before the desired torque is reached, at least with a Campy lockring. When you feel the notches, you know that you're getting close to the end. My wrench not only clicks, but also releases slightly, so you feel the click. If in doubt, quit pulling on the wrench handle, the pull again and the click should occur immediately. If you stop turning the lockring, it always takes a little more torque to get it moving again.

As others noted, it's not that critical. I sometimes use my old beam type wrench, where you have to watch the pointer as it approaches the desired setting. You just have to stop pulling at the right point.
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Old 11-10-18, 10:26 AM
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I can feel the handle of my wrenches move when they hit the desired torque. Kind of a subtle feel but it’s there.
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Old 11-10-18, 10:35 AM
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You just need to use the Torque wrench once, and then you will know how tight to go in the future.
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Old 11-10-18, 04:50 PM
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I torque my lock rings to 25nm. Using a calibrated wrench once, torquing to 40nm, I could not get the lock ring off. Neither could the LBS. Had a friend use an impact wrench to remove the lock ring. Now I torque at 25nm. Used a beam type torque wrench and is calibrated. KB
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Old 11-11-18, 04:47 AM
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Yep, 25Nm is heaps.

As for aluminum splines getting notched, they just shouldn't be a thing in the Shimano pattern. Do up a lockring tight enough to guarantee the cogs won't dig into aluminium splines, and you'll be close to stripping the thread.

In fact, I doubt it's possible to entirely prevent the cogs moving just by clamping them; it's a dumb idea. That's what proper splines are for.
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Old 11-11-18, 08:57 AM
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Per the Park Tool Website: here
Cassette sprocket lockring Shimano 260–434 in/lb Doing some math this equals an range of acceptable torque from 29.38 to 49.04 newton meters. Doing further math equals a range of 21.67 to 36.17 ft/lb
Cassette sprocket lockring Campagnolo® 442 in/lb Doing some math this equals 49.94 newton meters. Doing further math 36.83 ft/lb
Cassette sprocket lockring SRAM® 310–350 in/lb Doing some math this equals a range of acceptable torque from 35.03 to 39.54 newton meters. Doing further math equals a range of 25.84 to 29.17 ft/lb

As this post was a question about a Campy lockring specifically, 36.83 ft/lb, 442 in/lb, or 49.94nm is the correct torque

As for the recommendations of 25 ft/lb, that is right near the absolute minimum on a Shimano lockring, and less than the minimum on an Sram lock ring. It's no wonder there is movement allowed in the clocking of the cassette that causes spline failure. Spline failure as indicated by the gouges in the freehub body just shouldn't be a thing in an adequately designed system. That there is, is evidence that something is wrong. My guess would be the torque procedure used.
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Last edited by base2; 11-11-18 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 11-12-18, 01:50 AM
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Yeah, another reason I'm regretting getting rid of all my tools several years ago after a serious injury. Figured I'd never ride again. Figured wrong. Took 15 years but I'm riding again.

Without a torque wrench I'm guesstimating. When I swapped from 7 to 8 speed cassettes recently I noticed some creaking while pedaling a week later. Sounded like the bottom bracket but wasn't -- checked the chain ring bolts, crank arms, bottom bracket, nada. Still creaky.

Then I noticed it creaked only in the two or three smallest cogs, regardless of chainring. Cranked the cassette lock ring two or three more clicks. No creaks on a 30 mile test ride. So far, so good.

Never had that problem with the original Shimano cassette but it was pretty old. The new 8-speed is a Microshift, and the lock ring nubbins and spring doodads were fresh, so it probably fooled me with the guesstimate feel.

Last edited by canklecat; 11-12-18 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 11-12-18, 12:11 PM
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Thanks for all the responses.

I agree with those that feel 40nm seems to be a little on the high side, but I also don't think Campagnolo (or Shimano or SRAM) would pick an arbitrarily high number without reason. I just don't see how anything over 35, or even 30, would be insufficient.

Getting back to the torquing process itself, I guess it's just the violence of the clicks as the torque starts to build that surprised me. As mentioned, I'm very familiar with the way my torque wrenches (4 of them) work, but the clicks from the lockring become so pronounced that I'm not able to be completely sure when the wrench is clicking for the first time.

So I think I'm going to go to set it at 36nm (-10%) and carefully build up until I'm getting wrench clicks before any lockring clicks. I'll let you all know how it goes (unless you end up reading about a crash of mine in the newspaper or something).



Originally Posted by Kimmo
In fact, I doubt it's possible to entirely prevent the cogs moving just by clamping them; it's a dumb idea. That's what proper splines are for.
Yes, I always thought the same thing, that the movement of the cogs fore and aft (or rotationally, or whatever you would call it) against the splines isn't really affected by the tightness of the lockring.


Originally Posted by Trailangel
You just need to use the Torque wrench once, and then you will know how tight to go in the future.
I guess this is just your opinion, and that's fine, but I don't agree at all. In this case, with the violent lockring clicks, or in other higher-torque applications like the one I mentioned, I really don't see how anyone would get a good enough "feel" for the torque to have confidence in their estimated setting.

And I realize that everyone has their own mechanical abilities and penchant for this "feel," but if you think about assembly lines where a worker is tightening the same fastener repeatedly for hours on end, you wouldn't think that calibrated tool would be necessary, and yet they are.

Last edited by robertorolfo; 11-12-18 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 11-12-18, 01:31 PM
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I used a torque wrench on everything in my last build.......mix of beam for bigger numbers and click for smaller numbers...... the torque spec for the cassette lock ring surprised me at how much more it was than I did by feel. and overall even on things like brake cable clamps I found found I was tightening more than I would have by feel. ymmv
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Old 11-12-18, 03:39 PM
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You might consider using a beam deflection t.w. instead?

https://www.amazon.com/Craftsman-9-3.../dp/B00PUT6E38

or

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Presa-3-...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Old 11-12-18, 03:44 PM
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Planning on being able to replace a broken spoke on the road?

Like on a tour.. Don't overdo it or you wont get the lock-ring off..
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Old 11-12-18, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
I used a torque wrench on everything in my last build.......mix of beam for bigger numbers and click for smaller numbers...... the torque spec for the cassette lock ring surprised me at how much more it was than I did by feel. and overall even on things like brake cable clamps I found found I was tightening more than I would have by feel. ymmv
Yes, sometimes it's pretty surprising when you use the wrench on something you have been doing by feel. That said, a lot of the time I can't even compare because my torque wrenches are normally a lot longer and more robust than the simply allen key used for smaller parts, or even a simple ratchet used for bigger fasteners.

Originally Posted by Troul
You might consider using a beam deflection t.w. instead?
The first torque wrench I ever bought was that type. I really liked it, but I ended up leaving it in my parent's garage after discovering that I preferred the convenience of the click type. I thought about retrieving it the next time I was there, but I figured the jerky motion of the lockring would make that hard to read as well.

Originally Posted by fietsbob
Like on a tour.. Don't overdo it or you wont get the lock-ring off..
Would you consider the recommended torque of 40nm to be over doing it?
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Old 11-12-18, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
The first torque wrench I ever bought was that type. I really liked it, but I ended up leaving it in my parent's garage after discovering that I preferred the convenience of the click type. I thought about retrieving it the next time I was there, but I figured the jerky motion of the lockring would make that hard to read as well.
Would you consider the recommended torque of 40nm to be over doing it?
A good t.w. with an assertive operator should be capable in controlling the sweep, stopping before over applying torque.
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Old 11-12-18, 11:06 PM
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What are we torquing about?

nm : nanometer

Nm : Newton Meter

or

N x m : Newton X meter (emphasizes that it is a vector cross-product)


The spec usually appears on the lock-ring.
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Old 11-14-18, 09:08 AM
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My experience is similar to Squirtdads: perceived tightness is almost always less than the recommended tightness as measured by the torque wrench.
This has gotten to be particularly noticeable in the ext bearing BB cups and of course the cassette lockring. If I tighten manually I end up with ~half the
prescribed torque as it 'seems tight enough'. The biggest discrepancy was about 6-8 yrs ago when the shop swapped the Al gossamer cranks on the tandem
for the CF cranks, torquing those in was a bear. Other potential areas of sensitivity would be clamp bolts on CF bars, CF steering tubes and CF seat posts.

OTOH when there was a rage for Al chainwheel bolts, they were really easy to snap off with a short allen or torx key. Never saw a torque rating for them.
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Old 11-19-18, 03:56 PM
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Update (In case anyone cares):

So I got to install my Chorus 11 speed cassette this weekend, and it was WAY easier to torque properly than the Veloce 10 speed that inspired this thread. The clicks/notches on the Chorus were much more subtle and smooth (for lack of a better term), so using the wrench was pretty much standard operating procedure.

My experience with the Veloce was just completely different, where the lockring clicks were a lot more violent and abrupt.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Originally Posted by Troul View Post
A good t.w. with an assertive operator should be capable in controlling the sweep, stopping before over applying torque.
I agree, and see above. No issues this time around.


Originally Posted by sch
My experience is similar to Squirtdads: perceived tightness is almost always less than the recommended tightness as measured by the torque wrench.
This has gotten to be particularly noticeable in the ext bearing BB cups and of course the cassette lockring. If I tighten manually I end up with ~half the
prescribed torque as it 'seems tight enough'. The biggest discrepancy was about 6-8 yrs ago when the shop swapped the Al gossamer cranks on the tandem
for the CF cranks, torquing those in was a bear. Other potential areas of sensitivity would be clamp bolts on CF bars, CF steering tubes and CF seat posts.

OTOH when there was a rage for Al chainwheel bolts, they were really easy to snap off with a short allen or torx key. Never saw a torque rating for them.
My experience has been exactly the same. With this latest build, I've been tightening things fairly tight with "dumb" wrenches before putting the torque wrench to them, and trying to notice how much further I have to go with the torque wrench. And indeed in most cases it is considerably more than I expected. And yes, I'm following recommended torque on all of those bar and stem clamps, despite using aluminum components.

Lastly, as much as I love Campagnolo products, their aluminum brake lever clamp bolts and brake pad holder bots that use a Torx key are way too easy to strip. The group set I'm installing was purchased used, and all 4 brake pad bolts were stripped or about to strip (not that I really blame the previous owner). Luckily, jamming in the next highest size Torx bit actually works rather well.
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Old 11-19-18, 10:06 PM
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The general rule about torque applies here. Small fasteners tend to get over-torqued, large fasteners are under torqued.
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