Why a spring in the Noodle?
11-09-18, 06:33 PM
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Why a spring in the Noodle?
Servicing a bike in the family fleet, I noticed a spring inside the v-brake Noodle. What's that for? All I can think is to make the brake less responsive, and I'm tempted to remove it. Ideas?
11-09-18, 09:33 PM
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Since linier brakes are so powerful and many riders who buy low end mountain and hybrid bikes have never had so strong a front brake and since the bike company lawyers have a pretty big say in how things are done the spring lessens the on set of max braking forces. Think of it like a an anti lock device, which of course it isn't at all. Note that the more expensive bikes with these brakes generally don't have the spring loaded noodle.
I've made jokes about having brakes so powerful that you need to make them weaker. Andy
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11-09-18, 10:29 PM
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What??? Where'd you hear that one?
Since linier brakes are so powerful and many riders who buy low end mountain and hybrid bikes have never had so strong a front brake and since the bike company lawyers have a pretty big say in how things are done the spring lessens the on set of max braking forces. Think of it like a an anti lock device, which of course it isn't at all. Note that the more expensive bikes with these brakes generally don't have the spring loaded noodle.
I've made jokes about having brakes so powerful that you need to make them weaker. Andy
Since linier brakes are so powerful and many riders who buy low end mountain and hybrid bikes have never had so strong a front brake and since the bike company lawyers have a pretty big say in how things are done the spring lessens the on set of max braking forces. Think of it like a an anti lock device, which of course it isn't at all. Note that the more expensive bikes with these brakes generally don't have the spring loaded noodle.
I've made jokes about having brakes so powerful that you need to make them weaker. Andy
A. Cable Housing.
B. Housing End Ferrule.
C. Cable Guide.
D. Housing Detent.
E. Rubber Noodle.
F. Cable Clamp.
G. Cable Tail.
H. Cable Cap.
I. Brake Arm
J. Brake Block (Pad).
K. Block Setting Screw.
L. Arm Mounting Bolt.
11-09-18, 10:37 PM
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I cant find anything indicating a spring being used to "decrease" the strength of a linear pull brake. Given the lever advantage at the handle, I cant picture a little spring hidden in a rubber boot providing any "anti-lock" affect on a rim. A lawyer friend of mine DID say it would be more likely a bike company be sued for an instance of "I applied my brakes, they didn't stop me, and I hit a bus", rather than "I grabbed my brakes too hard and got launched over the handlebars". The latter is user error vs. the former being inadequate safety device effectiveness.
11-09-18, 10:58 PM
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The modulator goes between B and C in the above pic. It doesn’t decrease the strength because it’s in line with the cable. But it will increase the pull distance and make it feel more spongy. Like air in a hydraulic line.
Last edited by Darth Lefty; 11-09-18 at 11:05 PM.
11-09-18, 11:04 PM
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There were some V-brakes that came with "force limiters", which reduced the amount of pressure applied to the pads if the lever was pulled with great force. I agree that this is a liability-limiting device, not a practical design feature.
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11-09-18, 11:23 PM
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My comment about making the brakes weaker is the joke. Of course an inline spring only slows down the point where max force is attained.
As to the OP's question about removing the spring loaded noodle I say please do. You will find the feel is vastly improved. Andy (who knows how to modulate his brakes and doesn't need any stinking springs).
As to the OP's question about removing the spring loaded noodle I say please do. You will find the feel is vastly improved. Andy (who knows how to modulate his brakes and doesn't need any stinking springs).
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AndrewRStewart
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11-10-18, 01:07 AM
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TBH it doesn't make a huge difference - it might make the travel between pad contact & wheel lockup a bit wider, maybe. Remove it if you wish but I'd suggest try it first. If I did remove it I'd change a whole new noodle not just remove Spring.
Most interesting occurrence was on Raleigh Chopper Mk3
the early one had Xnine levers and Tektro arms. A few years later same bike comes with Alhonga levers & arms plus springy noodle. Ride them back to back & I'd doubt you'd pick which had the spring if I didn't tell you.
11-10-18, 04:04 AM
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The spring is an anti feature like lawyer tabs. Ditch it .
11-10-18, 06:13 AM
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It is a ”brake/force modulator”.å
It ”works” under the assumption that people try to control their braking by the amount of lever movement. So for the amount of wire pull corresponding to the compressibility of the spring, the brake’s pinch force is determined by the characteristics of the spring rather than the amount of lever movement/cable pull.
Done ”right”, it means that pinch force increases a little slower WRT lever travel than If the brake is set up without brake modulator.
It ”works” under the assumption that people try to control their braking by the amount of lever movement. So for the amount of wire pull corresponding to the compressibility of the spring, the brake’s pinch force is determined by the characteristics of the spring rather than the amount of lever movement/cable pull.
Done ”right”, it means that pinch force increases a little slower WRT lever travel than If the brake is set up without brake modulator.
11-10-18, 07:29 AM
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that makes more sense. I was thi king the wire was in the ribs of the rubber "E", and not an actual spring, per se, but white to prevent the ribs from deforming.
11-10-18, 07:45 AM
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I call that anti lock brakes when I find them lol, I have seen this on mid level & low level bikes lately.
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11-10-18, 08:19 AM
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Amusingly, the people I know who think that disc brakes make a night-and-day difference, probably all rode cheap hybrids with the spring in the noodle. The bike we're talking about here is a cheap hybrid too. The noodle needs a new one since it has gotten banged up, so I think I know what I'm going to do.
11-10-18, 10:25 AM
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Why a spring in the Noodle?
Soften , modulate, how hard the front V brake comes on, when you pull the lever.
say in a panic stop..
So you don't stop only the bike, out from under you, and go over the bars..
They are on entry level casual style bikes, in the LBS.
rather than remove the spring , just buy a new noodle , they're so cheap!
say in a panic stop..
So you don't stop only the bike, out from under you, and go over the bars..
They are on entry level casual style bikes, in the LBS.
rather than remove the spring , just buy a new noodle , they're so cheap!
Last edited by fietsbob; 11-10-18 at 10:35 AM.
11-10-18, 10:38 AM
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Someone asked here how to keep the brakes on their tadpole trike,
from stopping too fast & tipping the chainring down into the street..
those modulators would help..
from stopping too fast & tipping the chainring down into the street..
those modulators would help..
11-10-18, 01:14 PM
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There’s room in a human actuated system to adjust the feel. And a brake has lots of possible adjustments to the feel. If you have hard shoes you can pull really hard but get no stopping. The calipers can flex, the lever can flex, the studs can flex. I don’t want a modulator but I wouldn’t run down someone who does. I don’t want a brake booster either.
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11-10-18, 02:31 PM
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When I do tune-ups I often remove them if to balance the feel. On new assemblies they seem to feel ok but the spring performance I think flattens a bit with age.
11-10-18, 03:14 PM
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Yea If a Mountain bike racer, not a JRA old person, you would dislike them..
My 20" wheel BiFri, 160 disc BB7 had virtually no front modulation
(disc being 1/3 of the wheel size, may have some influence.. )
at slow speeds approaching a blind corner
with a building tight up to the sidewalk, Car right in front of me,
It Stopped the bike, but my body did not..
I thought about using one, Instead bought TRP Hy Rd Calipers,
so am finding, they have a smoother modulation..
With adjustable cable pull MA Avid Speed Dial Levers , I have more adjustments
to get the feel right for Me.
[Yea Disc Vs V is apples and Oranges ]
...
My 20" wheel BiFri, 160 disc BB7 had virtually no front modulation
(disc being 1/3 of the wheel size, may have some influence.. )
at slow speeds approaching a blind corner
with a building tight up to the sidewalk, Car right in front of me,
It Stopped the bike, but my body did not..
I thought about using one, Instead bought TRP Hy Rd Calipers,
so am finding, they have a smoother modulation..
With adjustable cable pull MA Avid Speed Dial Levers , I have more adjustments
to get the feel right for Me.
[Yea Disc Vs V is apples and Oranges ]
...
11-11-18, 07:27 AM
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In the early days of linear pull brakes, there was a group of people who would clamp their front brakes too hard and consequently endo. I remember having to tell customers to be careful until they got the feel for the brake. Some manufacturers installed a spring on the noodles to moderate the brake pressure.
In other words, you're right.
In other words, you're right.
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11-11-18, 07:38 AM
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In the very early days of V-brakes (early 1990s?)... didn't they also use the same/old brake levers as calipers? They were shorter travel with stronger pull, so early V-brakes did feel very on/off all or nothing.
11-11-18, 07:49 AM
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I don't remember that but I have ridden bikes that had canty brakes replaced with linear pull and I find all the cable pull hysteria to be a little over stated.
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11-11-18, 10:37 AM
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A mix has to be found; Low MA brake lever ,
pulls a lot more cable,
High MA Caliper demands more cable pull..
for relatively small motion, of pad to rim..
Increase the MA at the lever, shorter cable pull,
& you have to reduce the MA at the caliper side,
to function with less...
Hence short pull road levers got mini V brakes..
They, easier set up than Traditional Cantilevers..
...
pulls a lot more cable,
High MA Caliper demands more cable pull..
for relatively small motion, of pad to rim..
Increase the MA at the lever, shorter cable pull,
& you have to reduce the MA at the caliper side,
to function with less...
Hence short pull road levers got mini V brakes..
They, easier set up than Traditional Cantilevers..
...
Last edited by fietsbob; 11-11-18 at 10:43 AM.
11-11-18, 01:25 PM
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Within a year or two of their introduction, levers with dual ratios or adjustable ratios became available. I used Avid levers on my Tour Easy recumbent, which had a caliper brake in front and a V-brake in the rear. They worked just fine.
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