Quiglesnbits

I recently built my first rear wheel, got it all tensioned, trued, dished, and after 3-4 rides I took it off to take a look, and noticed that it has shifted a few mm toward the drive side. It is still quite true and round, just shifted over. Is this a result of bedding in or de-stressing of the spokes? I have it back on the truing stand to work on it some more, but is there a way to avoid this in the future? Is it somewhat normal if I didn't destress the wheel? Additionally, any recommendations for doing de-stressing at home? I obviously don't have a hydraulic press like i've seen in videos of the DT Swiss assembly process.

fietsbob

wound up spokes unwind a bit , that happens,
back in the truing stand give it a bit more attention,

after a while things settle in..

I leaned end of the hub against the floor, and push on the rim
to de stress things a bit..

then do another truing check.


I'm careful..


..

mrrabbit 

That is a NOT a proper way to stress relieve a wheels, does very little to begin with other than put the wheel at risk of being taco'ed.

Fietsbob, stop selling people really bad ideas...

=8-(

mrrabbit 

1. Pair of deerskin gloves....can be had at your local OSH, Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

2. Grab parallel sets of spokes on both sides simultaneously...

3. Squeeze super duper hard...for a couple rotations.

If the wheel stays:

- true
- dished
- in the desired tension ballpark

Then your wheel is done.

By working within the confines of the wheel itself, you eliminate the possibility of damaging the rim with the exception of super light tubulars from the 70s. (under 300g tubulars).

Try not to do this everyday or even every other day as I do, it's nasty on the hands.

I'll be adapting a park tool stand with a mechanical device soon that'll do the same. I'm getting old....

=8-)

63rickert

Riding the bike will accomplish stress relief. You've done that. It's not how you want to stress relieve a wheel if you are selling wheels, if you are building your own and have time for a little touch truing it is not a big deal.

Rim moving several millimeters just does not sound right. Rim moving several mm and remaining otherwise in truth sounds very odd indeed. Get someone with experience to look over your work. My first guess is your wheel was strung very loose but from here no way to know that.

Retro Grouch 

How did you check the dish on your wheel initially? If it's still true and round I can't imagine every single spoke loosening the exact same amount.

blamester

Last two replies seem correct.
Are you sure the dish was correct to begin.
Redish an ride then see how you get on.
First builds are learning.
No big deal.

Quiglesnbits

I set the rim on two short cups, and checked the distance from the hub to the table, and then did the same on the other side. Upon further investigation, Everything loosened quite a lot. I don't know how much is normal in that regard, but the drive side tension went from ~120 kgf to ~100 on quite a few spokes, so I have some work to do. the NDS was quite a bit lower from the start, but a couple of them ended up less than 50 when I went around with the park tool gauge today. I would have expected the drive side to loosen more, since they started from higher tension. Perhaps relative to the total starting value they did.

The wheel really is spinning very true. There is a bit more hop in it looking at it now than I initially thought, but even still, before working on it more, it spins better than the stock Bontrager AT-750 rims that came on my wife's bike.

rm -rf

Did you remeasure the tension when tires were mounted and inflated? That lowers the measured tension.

Retro Grouch 

Since you say your starting tensions on the drive side were 120 kgs, the amount of loosening you are describing is definitely unusual. If it was my wheel, I'd start completely over again with the tensioning and trueing process.

My method is to start with exactly 1 spoke thread visible on every single spoke. I do that by putting my thumb nail in the last spoke thread and tighten the nipple from inside the rim with a nipple driver. Then I tighten each spoke by the exact same small increment. I start with 1 full turn, the, as the tension gradually increases, I only take a half turn. My objective is to bring the whole wheel up to tension at the same time so that the rim stays concentric with the hub. There are faster ways to achieve the same end, but that's how I do it. The drive side spokes should all reach 120 kgs at pretty much the same time. Then I do the final truing by tightening and loosening opposing pairs of spokes by the same amount. That minimizes the differential between individual spoke tensions. I once built a tandem wheel using this method that, after I got it up to tension, required no final truing, either lateral or radial, at all. I was seriously stoked!

Andrew R Stewart 

This how I start up too. But I've learned that not all spokes are of the same length from the elbow to the start of the threads and not every rim has every spoke seat at the same depth. With only one nipple turn being less then .5mm of length change it doesn't take much discrepancy to have a turn or three of the nipples to make up tension/true length changes. So what I do is as the spokes are beginning to have some low tension on them I go around the wheel and even out the tensions by either loosening or tightening the nipples. I'll ping the spokes (at this low amount of tension they will just barely ring out). Once all are close to the same I'll maybe do a all spokes increase of tension (or not depending on how tight the spokes seem to be) before going to truing. I'll get the rim as round and flat as I can while keeping the tension below the end level. I usually tension up the cog side (for a rear wheel) first then do the other side second,so as to minimize these nipples having to be worked on any more then needed when their spokes are really tight. My cousin wrote an article for Bike World years ago about being able to end up with a good wheel only from spoke pinging tests. But that assumes a lot that real life isn't always willing to abide by. Andy

CliffordK

I never stress relieved wheels in the past, but I've dealt with popping.

Lately I've had ovalized spokes. With standard ovalized spokes, I simply let them wind up, then unwound them at the end. However, working with the reversed WH-6800 spokes were a major pain, and required holding the spokes.

Anyway, preventing wind-up may be a big part of stress relieving, and perhaps also help prevent changing of the wheel over the first few months of riding.

For round spokes, some builders have suggested marking the spokes with a marker pen before tensioning, then unwinding. I haven't tried that yet, but maybe my next builds.

One thing, once the tire is mounted and inflated, it will compress the rim slightly, and may affect spoke tension... and thus dishing. So one might wish to double check dishing with a mounted/inflated tire. I presume that is more of an issue with clinchers (including tubeless) than sewups/tubulars.

63rickert

A spoke nipple which has been adequately tightened - or tensioned - simply will not come loose. Every threaded fastener works exactly the same way.

50 kgpf is about the absolute minimum to keep a spoke nipple in place. As other posters have noted mounting a tire and inflating it reduces tension in a wheel. How much tension is lost depends on a lot of things - rim design, tire bead design, inflation pressure and more. In some circumstances a starting tension of 50kgpf would be just enough and in others it won't.

The big right/left discrepancy of 120/50 is not good. First guess is this is an 11 speed wheel. 11s is just plain harder to build. You are going to have to go to some high tensions on drive side to make this work. For that you will most likely need a three corner spoke wrench. Don't worry about exceeding mfrs recommended tension. Just as an example Velocity will tell you their rims should not exceed 120 but if you check tension on freshly unboxed Velocity wheels you will find tensions of 150 to 180 most of the time. There are certainly rims where higher tension will cause problems. What we are facing is a world where products that belong in beta get released immediately. If you want this wheel to work you just have to go higher on tension. And accept a small chance it will have a short life.

Get a dishing tool. They are cheap. Your method is clever but will never have any accuracy. For utility cruiser or 3speed wheels it is acceptable to stop adjusting center when 0.5mm off. For your own good wheels you want it spot on. When the tension is marginal you want it spot on. With your method you are not getting close to 0.5mm.

Since you have the tension meter there is a final step in building that helps in these cases. Uneven spoke tension means some spokes take more load and others can't much carry a load. That creates all kinds of cyclical stress in the wheel and will tend to loosen nipples. When the wheel is nearly done go around and adjust every spoke merely to get equal tension numbers. Pay no attention to how this affects truth. When you get all the way around after doing this the wheel is usually even truer. Of course there are times when one or two spokes just have to be different.

To get to high tension the best spoke prep is oil. Again, if the nipple is tight enough it will stay tight. Never spend money on proprietary spoke prep.

robertorolfo

I'm definitely not an expert or a pro, but many of the sources I have consulted have recommended this technique. And in my own, albeit limited, experience, it seems to work fairly well (although I do this AND grab/squeeze parallel spokes after every round of truing, so it could be one or the other carrying the weight).

mrrabbit 

1. A bicycle wheels strength is linear and vertical.
2. A bicycle wheels weakness is lateral.

Any side loading to a wheel at the point of the rim - is where the wheel's integrity starts to be put under pressure. Human being are not calibrated instruments.
You have no control over knowing the threshold at which the wheel yields and tacos.

3. For proper stress relieving to occur - a good 30+ KGF must be introduced and removed allowing the spokes to settle.

Minor deflection of the rim by a few millimeters while hub is braced is not going to achieve that.

Easiest four ways are:

- Grabbing parallel spokes on both sides and squeezing super duper ultra hard - while wearing gloves. (Hurts though, but easy.)
- The twist method shown at SheldronBrown.com
- A rig that presses spokes inward from the sides for a calibrated amount. (A few companies make these rigs...)
- 100% bracing of the rim while hub is pressed down for a calibrated amount. (A few companies make these rigs...pretty sure someone here built their own as well.)

The third and fourth ones are calibrated via proprietary charts and are used in mass production.

For a complete discussion on stress relieving, simply go to Google and seach for "Jobst Brandt USENET Stress Relieving"

=8-)

Bicycle Guild

There actually are measurable numbers for stainless steel spokes to do effective stress relieving. Changing the elbow bend occurs at 150 Kgf. Yes a wheel press is the best method to not damage the rim. If asked I can make kits to build your own wheel press. The Rolf box is a copy of the boxes used by engineers who invented the wire spoke wheel in the 1800's.

robertorolfo

Pretty sure it's a little more complicated than that, but, anyway, I got my procedure from this site: Wheels

I have no idea who this guy is, but his philosophy of doing every common procedure seems thorough and logical to me.

noglider 

fietsbob's technique succeeds in getting rid of tension caused by twisted spokes, but that is something other than stress relief. It's good not to have twisted spokes, but you can almost completely prevent it by overtightening a nipple and then loosening by the same amount. When I do that push-on-the-rim thing, few or no spokes click and untwist. But if you do that, it's fine. But you have not stress-relieved it.

mrrabbit 

Well aware of his site....

He has ERD down correctly...I'll give him that.

But tie and solder does not make a wheel stiffer...its a safety measure from a long while back reeinvented and sold as a wheel strengthening method. It doesn't - already been proven in a lab. Also makes maintenance an unnecessary pain.

Also he uses parallel spoke squeeze as a stress relief method...but for some odd reason also uses the brace and clock press method...unnecessary and fruitless.

He's basically combining practical and effective with myth and ineffective . . . something too many wheelbuilders do.

=8-)

63rickert

I'd say if you don't have to box up the wheel and send it to a paying customer don't even think about stress relief. The wheel will pop and creak for one or two revolutions and then you ride away. If it is an uneven and loose build it goes out of true a bit and you then re-true and tighten. If a good build it pops and creaks and moves maybe 0.1mm which you can later touchup or not.

I've used the Eric Hjertberg method a few times, which is dead simple but can't put it into a short post. Any interested could try his site. It does work, at least in the sense that the wheels don't pop that first revolution. But the net advantage is so trivial I usually forget and it doesn't matter.

noglider 

And in any case, a wheel does not lose its centering from riding. If it is off center now, it was off center when it was built.

robertorolfo

I agree with the idea that different procedures address different specific areas of concern, and that is why I do as many of them as possible (more on that below). I normally do get a fair amount of clicking/pinging on the first few rounds of the push-on-the-rim thing, and really having gotten any when first riding the wheels, so that is why I've stuck to it.

I don't claim to understand the exact science behind every nuance of these processes, and judging by the amount of variation/disagreement between builders, I'm not sure that anyone understands it 100%. You say it's ineffective, but also say that many wheelbuilders do it, so are they all crazy? I do believe in "The Wisdom of Crowds" in most circumstances, and this is one of them.

In any case, I'm building my own wheels for pleasure, and so an extra step that provides some peace of mind isn't an issue for me.

noglider 

It's fairly benign to push to get the wheel to ping, but it exposes the fact that the builder didn't unwind the spokes. The better practice is to overtighten by a quarter turn and then loosen by a quarter turn. I do this whenever I tighten a spoke for any reason. Since I started doing this, the number of pings I get has been reduced to nearly zero. I've read that some builders put flags on their spokes -- tape or a post-it -- to indicate how twisted a spoke is. Not a bad idea.

The nice thing about a wheel that doesn't ping is that it also doesn't go out of true. Once a spoke pings, you have to retrue, because pinging is a loss of tension.

mrrabbit 

The crux of the problem is threefold:

1. People learning something and assuming THAT way they learned it is the correct way.
2. People trying to sell something OLD as something NEW.
3. People passing around MYTH without questioning it.

I among a few other builders here at Bikeforums and elsewhere constantly have to battle those three things.


Example of #1 :

Inside pulling versus outside pulling spokes in a rear wheel. Too many wheelbuilders start out learning ONE way, and assume that's the right way.

The truth is - the difference is negligible...pick one...build the wheel, tension, dish and stress relieving are what matters.


Example of #2 :

Tie and soldering of spokes. It was originally done for very large non-interlaced wheels to hold a broken spoke in place so it wouldn't be a hazard.

Someone later decided to take that idea out of the dust bin during the 60s and 70s and sell it as a wheel stiffening method and of course make more money up front and even moreso during maitenance windows.


Example of #2 and #3 combined:

No Dish / Zero Dish wheel modification. This zombie refuses to die....no matter how many times it has been shot, burned, run over, sliced and diced, put through the meat grinder, etc.

Someone always pops up, recommending to others tightening up the non-drive spokes of a multi-gear asymmetrical rear wheel - claiming it creates a stronger no dish / zero dish wheels.

What it really does when centered in the symmetrical frames 99.99% of us ride on is:

1. Cause poor handling.
2. Increase drivetrain noise and wear and tear.
3. Cause poor shifting at certain positions.
4. Results in a misaligned derailleur hanger IF the hanger is ever aligned against that wheel.

And of course, a hefty repair bill when the owner finally clues in that something is wrong and takes the bike to a shop to get it all undone.

All wheels for the 99% of the bikes we ride upon have dish. Single spoked wheels have ONE type of dish. Dual flanged wheels with center drilled rims have TWO types of dish. You cannot avoid this unless you have an assymmetrical frame...which very very few of us have. The shop in England that used to make them is no longer in business...last I heard.


And of course, to get back on subject, this clock positional rim press method passed off as stress relieving ain't. It's another example of #2 and #3 combined.

=8-)

63rickert

Wisdom of crowds --- Back when I was still racing it got to the point I just would not take a spare wheel from anyone. This was during the universal tubular era and during the era when the fragile silk things did still flat constantly. Every wheel ever handed to me was so incredibly bad it made my head hurt. Better to just walk back. And these guys were beating me. And we were going into that corner shoulder to shoulder at 35mph and flying down the hills at 50 and 55 and they were all doing it on pure garbage wheels. From time to time someone would ask me to build a wheel and I'd comply, with demurrals I was not the greatest wheelbuilder ever but it would be laced up and round and straight at least at first. Maybe half would review the build as "doesn't totally suck" which was about right. The other half would just rave about the phenomenal wheels. And I'd check them and touch them up a bit and pray they continued to hold. Probably the biggest thing holding me back was I knew a couple of gifted builders who had tension meters in their fingers and scoffed at the idea of using that tool. Biggest strength was I owned a dish tool and used it when a lot of the local shops sold the idea "you always have to readjust the brakes when you put in a different wheel". By the time I learned what should have been the basics nearly everyone was using factory built system wheels (many of which were pure garbage) and no one trusted a handbuilt. Which was perfectly reasonable in my estimation and no point in arguing. On the infrequent occasions I build for anyone else these days the review is most often "I had no idea a wheel could be like this. My $2000 wheels are nothing compared to this." But they will soon be in the market for the latest and greatest next pair of advertised wheels.

Inside pull/outside pull - The front wheel and the rear wheel must use the same pattern. Show up with non-matching wheels and someone is sure to make snide comments. Make your wheels match just so you don't have to hear the smug tone of voice.

If in doubt, if your wheels just don't perform to expectation try something different. Or take them to mrrabbit. Good builders earn their keep and then some.