Spokes a bit short
11-28-18, 07:11 AM
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Spokes a bit short
So I have built a front wheel, and the spokes on one side really could be a couple millimeters longer. What's the likely outcome? Is it a problem for spoke ends to be a couple millimeters shy of the nipple head? What has been people's experience here?
11-28-18, 07:27 AM
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On a front wheel, you would expect to use the same length spokes on both sides (unless it's a disc hub) were they all the same length? Is the wheel significantly off center?
11-28-18, 07:41 AM
#3
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If the spokes were the same length there would no way one side would be shorter than the other for a front wheel. Two things could have happened: 1) You overtigtened one side, so wheel is off center 2) You over-laced (3x instead of 2x for instance).
That being said, if the majority of the threads are inside the nipple, you should be fine with a few threads showing. There will be marginally more friction on the rest of the threads, which might make it harder to make adjustments later and wear them prematurely.
That being said, if the majority of the threads are inside the nipple, you should be fine with a few threads showing. There will be marginally more friction on the rest of the threads, which might make it harder to make adjustments later and wear them prematurely.
11-28-18, 08:00 AM
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Details!
- number of spokes?
- hub-, rim- or brakeless?
- intended usage?
A wheel intended for an easy life(32/36 spokes, rim/no brake, casual/moderate use) will usually survive even with threads showing above the nipple flats.
- number of spokes?
- hub-, rim- or brakeless?
- intended usage?
A wheel intended for an easy life(32/36 spokes, rim/no brake, casual/moderate use) will usually survive even with threads showing above the nipple flats.
11-28-18, 08:18 AM
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It's a disk hub. Shimano SLX. 32 holes. DT Swiss 533 rim. Spoke lengths are different left and right. You wouldn't expect that, but there you have it. I've checked carefully w/a dishing gauge. The rim is centered.
I took a second look at the spokes. The short side spokes come up to just where a flat blade screwdriver would contact them if you put the screwdriver blade into the slot. The other side spokes come up closer to the top of that same screwdriver slot. There are no threads showing above the nipple flats.
Edit: Looking again after a night's sleep, I'm thinking I'm ok and should leave well enough alone.
I took a second look at the spokes. The short side spokes come up to just where a flat blade screwdriver would contact them if you put the screwdriver blade into the slot. The other side spokes come up closer to the top of that same screwdriver slot. There are no threads showing above the nipple flats.
Edit: Looking again after a night's sleep, I'm thinking I'm ok and should leave well enough alone.
11-28-18, 08:22 AM
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Unless you should be forced to change the dish considerably at some time, that will be so close to maximum strength that it doesn't matter.
11-28-18, 08:36 AM
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It's a disk hub. Shimano SLX. 32 holes. DT Swiss 533 rim. Spoke lengths are different left and right. You wouldn't expect that, but there you have it. I've checked carefully w/a dishing gauge. The rim is centered.
I took a second look at the spokes. The short side spokes come up to just where a flat blade screwdriver would contact them if you put the screwdriver blade into the slot. The other side spokes come up closer to the top of that same screwdriver slot. There are no threads showing above the nipple flats.
Edit: Looking again after a night's sleep, I'm thinking I'm ok and should leave well enough alone.
I took a second look at the spokes. The short side spokes come up to just where a flat blade screwdriver would contact them if you put the screwdriver blade into the slot. The other side spokes come up closer to the top of that same screwdriver slot. There are no threads showing above the nipple flats.
Edit: Looking again after a night's sleep, I'm thinking I'm ok and should leave well enough alone.
I'm not an engineer but I do know, as a general rule, braking forces exceed acceleration forces. I'd worry more about inadequate spoke thread engagement on a front disc brake wheel than on a rear drive wheel.
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11-28-18, 08:47 AM
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It's a disk hub. Shimano SLX. 32 holes. DT Swiss 533 rim. Spoke lengths are different left and right. You wouldn't expect that, but there you have it. I've checked carefully w/a dishing gauge. The rim is centered.
I took a second look at the spokes. The short side spokes come up to just where a flat blade screwdriver would contact them if you put the screwdriver blade into the slot. The other side spokes come up closer to the top of that same screwdriver slot. There are no threads showing above the nipple flats.
Edit: Looking again after a night's sleep, I'm thinking I'm ok and should leave well enough alone.
I took a second look at the spokes. The short side spokes come up to just where a flat blade screwdriver would contact them if you put the screwdriver blade into the slot. The other side spokes come up closer to the top of that same screwdriver slot. There are no threads showing above the nipple flats.
Edit: Looking again after a night's sleep, I'm thinking I'm ok and should leave well enough alone.
As for the spokes, it sounds like your threads are sufficiently buried in the nipple. Ideally, the spoke should just touch the slot in the spoke nipple. Often times it's a bit over (better) or under (not the best but workable) because spokes come in sizes with 2mm increments. It sounds like yours are just about right.
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11-28-18, 09:40 AM
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Minimum ERD aiming point = Penetrate Thickness of the Inner Rim Wall
Better ERD aiming point = Grab Some of the Head of the Nipple
Even Better ERD aiming point = Bottom of Screwdriver Flat
If you've achieved the first OR more...you are fine.
People can spend all day waxing poetic about 12 flavors of mustard in an academic ivory tower...
...this is just one of the judgement calls that a wheelbuilder has to make in the real world where many have to work with what they have.
=8-)
Better ERD aiming point = Grab Some of the Head of the Nipple
Even Better ERD aiming point = Bottom of Screwdriver Flat
If you've achieved the first OR more...you are fine.
People can spend all day waxing poetic about 12 flavors of mustard in an academic ivory tower...
...this is just one of the judgement calls that a wheelbuilder has to make in the real world where many have to work with what they have.
=8-)
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Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
11-28-18, 09:48 AM
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I took a second look at the spokes. The short side spokes come up to just where a flat blade screwdriver would contact them if you put the screwdriver blade into the slot. The other side spokes come up closer to the top of that same screwdriver slot. There are no threads showing above the nipple flats.
11-28-18, 11:03 AM
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flush with the base of the screwdriver slot supports the head,
too fat below that and the spoke head is vulnerable (metal fatigue) could pop off..
too fat below that and the spoke head is vulnerable (metal fatigue) could pop off..
11-28-18, 12:49 PM
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I consider the spokes that just come up to the screw driver slot's bottom to be the correct length and the spokes that come close to the nipple's ends the too long ones. But I also consider both to be within an acceptable range. Especially for a front wheel the likelihood of needing to do significant future nipple turning is slim, even with a hub brake. Andy
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11-28-18, 01:48 PM
#14
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Assuming it's an M7000 hub, I show .5mm difference in spoke length.
Didn't you run the hub through a spoke calculator and factor the offset?
Corrected .5mm from 1.3mm
Didn't you run the hub through a spoke calculator and factor the offset?
Corrected .5mm from 1.3mm
Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 11-28-18 at 02:04 PM.
11-28-18, 03:23 PM
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I'd go with longer nipples. If the wheel is built with 12 mm ones, 14 mm give you an extra 1 mm, while 16 mm ones give 2 mm extra length.
At least for DT Swiss and Sapim nipples.
At least for DT Swiss and Sapim nipples.
11-28-18, 07:42 PM
#17
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The first wheel I built the spokes were short enough for the threads to show at the base of the nipples. I used the bike (a beach cruiser) to carry tools and parts around the refinery. When I retired I gave the bike to a friend and it held up until a guy backed over it with a pickup.
I wouldn't worry about your problem too much.
I wouldn't worry about your problem too much.
11-29-18, 05:05 PM
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I came up 4mm too short - LBS measured the old spokes wrong but I built them. Figured I'd ride until they failed and then re-build... it's been 2 years and they're still fine. Commute bike with hard use too.
11-29-18, 09:30 PM
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Won't last forever though....
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
11-30-18, 08:33 AM
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Unbranded hubs and unlisted rims and too much trust in the shop guy to measure. I've got the correct lengths logged for when needed next time though for sure.
11-30-18, 09:28 AM
#21
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I'd ride that wheel for sure. If it breaks, then you know first hand what result a certain thread engagement will give you. As a control, split upon a nipple you are using. This will enable you to tell what amount of threads on the spoke that are not engaged in your current wheel. Most nipples are not threaded all the way from head to bottom.
On an equally important note, do you have a means of gauging the tension in your spokes?
On an equally important note, do you have a means of gauging the tension in your spokes?
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