Internal BB cups extending outside of shell?
 

Hey there folks...

I recently had my old city bike (Bianchi Eros on a Brava frame, Campy parts) overhauled at the local bike shop. I picked it up tonight.

Something I noticed that I never noticed on a bike before - the bottom bracket cup-threads extend out about 4mm or so on the non-drive side (and possibly a bit on the drive-side). This doesn't look right to me. Is this SUPPOSED to be this way? I'd always thought that the BB cups on an internal BB should be flush with the shell.

I'll be calling the shop tomorrow, but thought you experts might be able to shed some light on this.

See attached photos - tell me if this looks normal to you.

This is a Phil Wood BB.

- Tim
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...09850a5acb.jpg

Drive side
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ac3af5e135.jpg

Non-drive side

From what I remember about Phil Wood sealed, square taper BB units, there is no fixed cup side; they both thread into the shell like the one you have pictured. The excess you see is because (presumably) someone set the chain line up properly on the drive side which shifted the the BB toward the NDS. That's as far in as that cup will go, you can actually see the BB unit snug against the adjusting cup.

You can double check your chain line pretty easy but if you don't have any shifting problems I'd leave well enough alone.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...133a7f5f8c.jpg
The first thing I'll point out is that the Phil Bb uses retaining rings, not cups. The Phil design allows for some side to side BB axle location adjustment to best fine tune chain line and ring/frame clearances. It's common to have a little of the retaining rings show past the shell ends. Here's the instructions as on the Phil web site.
http://www.philwood.com/philpdfs/squ...ons_022015.pdf
Here's a shot of one of our touring bikes and it's retaining ring that's not flush with the shell end. Andy

Does that "feature" cost extra as well?

As Andrew pointed out, they are not cups in the strictest sense of the word, but they are used to adjust the BB unit in the shell L or R for chain line and thread in where BB cups go. OP, I'm sorry if my terminology wasn't clear or confused you. Now I'm off to replace a brinelled headset ;)

one size fits most
 

Same bearing to bearing cartridge width , different axle lengths ,
and of course standard BB shells , range from a width of 68 to 73mm ,
(without getting into the fat-bike types that are even wider)

I know, but I wouldn't be happy with my bike in the OP's condition. I realize that it's completely fine functionally, but it would just bother me to have so much exposed thread, especially if this were a "premium" component I was using.

Then you are not a potential customer for one of the BB's that has been proven by dozens of years, by thousands of other riders as being among the best and longest lasting units made. We're not asking you to use one. Andy

Thanks for all the info and discussion, folks!

I wrote to Phil Wood, and a rep got back to me. Here's what he said:

With a little effort one can look up inside the rings to see if the bearing are seated against the rings' relieved seat. I suspect a thin piece of stiff wire would also be able to be used as a probe to check this out. The second photo shows both what might be a step in the ring splines indicating that the ring isn't in fully but on the other ide of that ring i looks like there's no step, or that the ring is fully seated. I do know that it can be hard to seat the rings in all the way. When I install a Phil BB I lube just that step/ring seat. Andy

Thanks!

- Tim

I'm just saying it would bother me, so yes, I guess that means I wouldn't be a potential customer. I'm sure their products are proven and well made, but they are also expensive, so my expectations would be higher. And since people never pass up an opportunity to complain about the cost of a certain Italian brand that has quality and reliability on par with, if not superior to this brand, I didn't think my comment is so far out of line (pun intended).

I'm glad you got it sorted out OP. You'd think the guy working at the place that made the BB and cups would have checked the internet before typing his response :roflmao2:

Not sure I get the joke...?

- Tim

Check the first sentence of post number 4 ;)

It turns out they ARE cups according to someone who works at Phil Wood.

It could be that these "center sleeves"are the "retaining rings" mentioned in post #4 . When I speak to my mechanics I'll find out what the REAL name is. :-)

- Tim

No 'center sleeves" is/are the sleeve between the bearings inner races, just along the axle, that set up the dimension that the bearings sit at WRT each other. It's this sleeve that keeps the bearings from being compressed by the QR/axle bolts tightening.

I see that Phil now uses the reference of "cups" to describe what they use to call rings. So I now stand corrected. As they make this stuff they can call these things whatever they wish to, whenever they decide to. But BITD we all called then rings as there's no real cup like features to them and Phil called them that back then.

At one time Phil had a minimum number of cup/ring threads that they wanted to be engaged in the shell's threads. I forget what that number was but one general mechanical standard is at least 5 threads of overlap for minimal retaining strength. But that's not using any thread locking compounds. Phil's instructions (see the link I posted before) claim a 5mm range of side to side positional adjustment. So measure the amount of cup/ring extending out of the shell and if there's more then a 2.5mm difference between the two sides then either a side isn't fully seated against it's bearing or the side to side adjustment is off of recommended spec. Of course all this assumes a 68mm shell and not a 68.XXX or 67.XXX (or 70 or 73....). Andy

I reamed and tapped a threadless Viscount BB shell with Italian threads and installed a Phil cartridge. The Viscount shell is only 66mm wide, so the mounting rings extended past the edge of the shell on both sides. I didn't like how it looked, so I put an Italian thread BB lockring on both sides for a more finished look.

That's a great idea ! ^^^^^^^^

Here's a picture of it:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/viscount/phil-bb.jpg

The one caveat is that English bottom brackets have left-hand-thread on the drive side, so finding a lockring for that side can be problematic. But they do exist, e.g. some SunTour cartridge bottom brackets have a lockring on each side, and the English thread version includes a left-hand thread lockring for the drive side:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/suntour-bb-cartridge.jpg

Nice solution!

John, can we assume you like riding bikes better than washing them? ;)

Heh. That's actually my designated "bad weather bike."

:thumb: