Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

What spacers for 10 speed MTB cassette on 11 speed hub?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

What spacers for 10 speed MTB cassette on 11 speed hub?

Old 12-18-18, 07:28 PM
  #26  
raria
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
It's just the chain running rough through the lower jockey. It's 11 speed chain it's not new but under 500 miles

Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
What is that noise??
Is your chain bend?
new chain?
10 sp chain?
raria is offline  
Old 12-18-18, 07:55 PM
  #27  
LesterOfPuppets
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Valley of the Sun.
Posts: 37,568

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7740 Post(s)
Liked 2,801 Times in 1,525 Posts
11 speed mtb RD, 11 speed chain.

10 speed cassette

Hmmm.

What shifter are we working with?

How extended is the RD when in big/big?
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 12-18-18, 08:14 PM
  #28  
raria
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanks. I tried it with an 11 speed cassette and same problem.

Shifter is SLX M7000 11 speed shifter.

RD is very extended bu that's to be expected its a 36T big cog

Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets View Post
11 speed mtb RD, 11 speed chain.

10 speed cassette

Hmmm.

What shifter are we working with?

How extended is the RD when in big/big?
raria is offline  
Old 12-18-18, 09:06 PM
  #29  
LesterOfPuppets
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Valley of the Sun.
Posts: 37,568

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7740 Post(s)
Liked 2,801 Times in 1,525 Posts
I'd try a 1x chainring as others have suggested, if it's still dropping, I'd try moving one of those crank spacers over to the drive side.
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 12-19-18, 06:43 AM
  #30  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 1,950
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 586 Post(s)
Liked 457 Times in 311 Posts
This gets more interesting all the time. Why are you using a 10 speed cassette if the shifter is 11 speed? I can't think of a situation where that would work properly.

Also, that chain has some weird bends in it.
dsaul is offline  
Old 12-19-18, 07:59 AM
  #31  
raria
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
No. 10 speed cassette on a 11 speed MTB RD isnt a problem. Lots of threads how they work together. Besides tried it with a 11 speed wheel and had same problems.

hmmm. Where. Did you see the chain bends? In the video or the pictures?

Does the chainline look correct? Ithink thats my main focus here. The crankset manual specifixally says dont use with 130mm rear spaced hub.
Originally Posted by dsaul View Post
This gets more interesting all the time. Why are you using a 10 speed cassette if the shifter is 11 speed? I can't think of a situation where that would work properly.

Also, that chain has some weird bends in it.
raria is offline  
Old 12-19-18, 08:30 AM
  #32  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 1,950
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 586 Post(s)
Liked 457 Times in 311 Posts
In terms of the chainline, I don't know why you can't wrap your head around the fact that the narrower rear wheel makes the chainline from the small cog to the large chainring "less" extreme than it would be with a 135mm wheel. It makes it more extreme to the large cog, but thats not the issue you've been describing. You say the problem is the chain coming off the OUTSIDE of the chainring when on the smallest cog.

In terms of the shifting:

Shimano 10 speed MTB shifter pull of 3.4mm x RD ratio of 1.2 = 4.08mm movement per shift
Shimano 11 speed MTB shifter pull of 3.6mm x RD ratio of 1.1 = 3.96mm movement per shift

.12mm difference per shift equals 1.2mm over 10 shifts. It probably works, but its going to have some misalignment on one end of the cassette.

The real question is, what makes you want to use a 10 speed cassette with an otherwise complete 11 speed system?
dsaul is offline  
Old 12-19-18, 10:08 AM
  #33  
LesterOfPuppets
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Valley of the Sun.
Posts: 37,568

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7740 Post(s)
Liked 2,801 Times in 1,525 Posts
Originally Posted by raria View Post
No. 10 speed cassette on a 11 speed MTB RD isnt a problem. Lots of threads how they work together. Besides tried it with a 11 speed wheel and had same problems.

hmmm. Where. Did you see the chain bends? In the video or the pictures?

Does the chainline look correct? Ithink thats my main focus here. The crankset manual specifixally says dont use with 130mm rear spaced hub.

Tough to guess chainline from photos of even numbered drivetrains. If you had a 1x chainring on and took pics in the 5 and 6 cog, we could have a guess at chainline.

Another thing to consider is that an 11sp Shimano MTB cassette will sit inboard of a 10sp MTB or 11 speed road cassrtte. Would have a minimum of 40t big cog to get one that does so, however.

Have you tried it with the clutch off?
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 12-19-18, 10:19 AM
  #34  
LesterOfPuppets
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Valley of the Sun.
Posts: 37,568

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7740 Post(s)
Liked 2,801 Times in 1,525 Posts
Also, it seems like lower pulley chain noise *might* be reduced with a longer chain. Set it up so that chain is almost rubbing upper pulley with RD in small cog. This will give the longest effective chainstay distance between chainring and lower pulley.

It's a tough setup as that RD is designed with longer chainstays and smaller chainrings in mind.

Last edited by LesterOfPuppets; 12-19-18 at 07:37 PM.
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 12-19-18, 11:07 AM
  #35  
raria
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
This is turning into a Saga like Gone With the Wind

Raleigh's help desk was very useful.

They said the crankset they paired with teh bike has a 43.5mm chain line.

But the crankset I had was 46mm chain line. Could that be the issue?

As God as my witness, I shall never buy a Cyclocross bike again!
raria is offline  
Old 12-19-18, 01:57 PM
  #36  
trailangel
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,689

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1804 Post(s)
Liked 583 Times in 344 Posts
Measure your chainline
trailangel is offline  
Old 12-19-18, 07:27 PM
  #37  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 13,124

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6064 Post(s)
Liked 3,224 Times in 1,863 Posts
Originally Posted by raria View Post
As God as my witness, I shall never buy a Cyclocross bike again!
it isnt the bike category fault.
you have hodgepodged together a bike and with that decision comes issues. Its hardly unique- its seemingly kinda common.

43.5mm chainline is a road crankset. Makes sense, since its 130mm spacing in back.

regardless, the crank you have isnt meant to run 1x. Get a 1x chainring(called narrow wide) that fits your crank's bcd and see if the small ring of your current crank is close enough to 43.5mm to make it work.
or sell that crank and buy one that is meant to be used with the frame you bought.

and I still haven't seen you say why you have a 10sp cassette with all this. Seems odd.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 12-21-18, 10:04 PM
  #38  
raria
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
God it was complicated

It was a number of things interplaying:

1) Turns out the 114 link chain I bought wasn't 114 links it was 110 links
2) Turns out the clutch on the RD was too tight

Lets just say JensonUSA isn't getting my business in the future. I'm almost certain they sold me returned parts.

Everything works fine now. No need to buy new cranks or do anything special, just had to get the existing parts to behave how they were supposed to.

Originally Posted by dsaul View Post
The "culprit" is that you are using a double crankset without a derailleur. You can't just stick the chain on one of the chainrings and call it a 1x. You need to take off those chainrings and put on a chainring that was designed for 1x use.
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
you have hodgepodged together a bike and with that decision comes issues. Its hardly unique- its seemingly kinda common.
Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
Chain might be too long, FD high limit screw might need adjustment, FD angle might need adjustment
Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
You need to adjust your rear derailleur's high limit screw.
raria is offline  
Old 12-22-18, 08:11 AM
  #39  
GrainBrain
Senior Member
 
GrainBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Central Io-way
Posts: 2,058

Bikes: LeMond Zurich, Giant Talon 29er

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1057 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 258 Posts
Originally Posted by raria View Post
It was a number of things interplaying:

1) Turns out the 114 link chain I bought wasn't 114 links it was 110 links
2) Turns out the clutch on the RD was too tight

Lets just say JensonUSA isn't getting my business in the future. I'm almost certain they sold me returned parts.

Everything works fine now. No need to buy new cranks or do anything special, just had to get the existing parts to behave how they were supposed to.
Kudos for your unique learning experience. A couple stray observations...

Buy a steel machinist rule: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010IR0CGG..._IlKhCbJW5WF0K

Did you use a different chain after replacing the one you bought from Jenson? I hadn't followed this thread but the first 11 speed chain I bought had a stuck link, I wonder if this was the issue more then not having 114 links. My chain was brand new Shimano. It took the tech guys a bit of headscratching to figure that out.

It makes no sense that a longer chain and looser RD clutch will stop the chain from falling off the front.

You should buy a NW ring as others have noted.

I'll look at your other thread again, but why not an 11 speed cassette!? You know what I would do? Why not get crazy and get the 11 speed 11-40, drop the 40t cog, then rig in a 14t cog. That would be sweet.
GrainBrain is offline  
Old 12-22-18, 06:54 PM
  #40  
trailangel
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,689

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1804 Post(s)
Liked 583 Times in 344 Posts
Operator Error
trailangel is offline  
Old 12-23-18, 09:08 AM
  #41  
raria
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Big Shout out to JensonUSA!

I reached out to JensonUSA and told them both products they sold were clearly returned items (the 114 link chain only had 108 links). To their credit they let me keep the items (chain and RD) and refunded my money. Whilst I'm not happy because they wasted my time, at least they tried to make it better so I'll give them another chance.

Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Operator Error
How?

Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets View Post
I'd try a 1x chainring as others have suggested, if it's still dropping, I'd try moving one of those crank spacers over to the drive side.
It's fine now, no dropping at all. I talked to some serious MTB type and they saw no need for a dedicated 1 x 11 chainring UNLESS I did some serious single track (i.e. bumpy rides).

Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
'll look at your other thread again, but why not an 11 speed cassette!? .
The SLX M7000 is designed for 10 or 11 speed cassettes. For the former you just have two clicks for the largest cog. It works flawlessly. As to why I didn't go 11 speed to start off with, a high quality 11-36 10 speed cassette can be had for $20 but the 11-42 11 speed cassettes are 3 times + and I wasn't sure I need a that big cog at the back (as yet).

Originally Posted by dsaul View Post
This gets more interesting all the time. Why are you using a 10 speed cassette if the shifter is 11 speed? I can't think of a situation where that would work properly.
Also, that chain has some weird bends in it.
It was your last point that got me thinking about chain length. Thanks! I used the standard chain length calculator that said I needed a chain of 56 inches. So I bought a 114 link chain (57 inches). But when I measured it, it was only 54 inches.
raria is offline  
Old 12-23-18, 10:32 AM
  #42  
LesterOfPuppets
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Valley of the Sun.
Posts: 37,568

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7740 Post(s)
Liked 2,801 Times in 1,525 Posts
Yeah, that pulley noise made me think chain too short. That last pic in post 22 points to chain too short also, assuming it's in the 4th or 5th cog, RD shouldn't be that extended in that position. I'm surprised short chain would affect chain drop that much. I suppose it make a bit of sense, as the RD extends, it's pushing the chain down as much as it's pulling it back.
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 12-23-18, 10:33 AM
  #43  
02Giant 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,975
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1472 Post(s)
Liked 568 Times in 374 Posts
I would shift one of the spacers to the drive side to offset the crank outboard slightly more. A narrow/wide chain ring would help also. You have a pretty extreme chainline in the large front/small rear combo, if the chain stays are short, that will make the problem slightly worse.

I have a hybid that was 1x9, I ran a narrow/wide single front ring, centered on the middle of the cassette, it is a long stay bike that would still occasionally drop the chain on very bumpy terrain in the big/small combo.
02Giant is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
fastbike
Bicycle Mechanics
21
08-24-20 04:30 AM
ImAsian
Mountain Biking
11
06-16-16 07:37 AM
Sceadu498
Bicycle Mechanics
17
04-05-16 06:41 AM
bici_mania
Bicycle Mechanics
19
09-29-15 01:35 PM
Fang66
Bicycle Mechanics
9
08-01-10 01:54 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.