BB Bolt coming loose, keep stripping crank arms
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
BB Bolt coming loose, keep stripping crank arms
Hello, I am a new user here but i'll get to the point. I am a heavy rider.
I own a 6KU Single Speed bike and the crank arms are square tapered. It's a Neco Square Taper BB. It's been almost a year since I got my bike and I have stripped the square hole on 3 left-side aluminum crank arms and 1 BB bolt.
The drive side has never given me a single problem.
I notice the bolt loosens when I put stress on the crank arms to speed up, or go from 0 to cruising speed. The loosening of the bolt causes play on the crank arm, which then causes stripping.
Not to mention, only when I pedal too hard uphill I hear creaking, but on flat ground there is no creaking no matter how hard I pedal.
I suspect it's my own weight but first here are some other details.
The BB bolt tightens clockwise, so I suspect I am loosening the bolt whenever I pedal, which is counter clockwise.
The M8 threaded bolt has never been tightened to the precise torque by my bike service shop, they tighten it to hell and I can only tighten it so much with a hex key, which clearly will not get me near the proper torque.
I used blue Loctite, let it settle for 72hrs, and on the first ride the bolt came loose again. Again, I could only use a hex key to tighten it.
I thought that maybe the threads the bolt goes into were stripped, but upon examination they're fine.
So my question is, what is causing the bolt to loosen and my crank arm to strip?
Is it improper torquing, my weight, or the fact that the bolt is tightened clockwise while I pedal counter clockwise?
Do I need a new BB set?
I called my bike shop and they're suggesting a steel crank arm, but I have a feeling that's a temporary solution.
edit: the bolt is also in perfect condition, the crank arm is starting to strip.
I own a 6KU Single Speed bike and the crank arms are square tapered. It's a Neco Square Taper BB. It's been almost a year since I got my bike and I have stripped the square hole on 3 left-side aluminum crank arms and 1 BB bolt.
The drive side has never given me a single problem.
I notice the bolt loosens when I put stress on the crank arms to speed up, or go from 0 to cruising speed. The loosening of the bolt causes play on the crank arm, which then causes stripping.
Not to mention, only when I pedal too hard uphill I hear creaking, but on flat ground there is no creaking no matter how hard I pedal.
I suspect it's my own weight but first here are some other details.
The BB bolt tightens clockwise, so I suspect I am loosening the bolt whenever I pedal, which is counter clockwise.
The M8 threaded bolt has never been tightened to the precise torque by my bike service shop, they tighten it to hell and I can only tighten it so much with a hex key, which clearly will not get me near the proper torque.
I used blue Loctite, let it settle for 72hrs, and on the first ride the bolt came loose again. Again, I could only use a hex key to tighten it.
I thought that maybe the threads the bolt goes into were stripped, but upon examination they're fine.
So my question is, what is causing the bolt to loosen and my crank arm to strip?
Is it improper torquing, my weight, or the fact that the bolt is tightened clockwise while I pedal counter clockwise?
Do I need a new BB set?
I called my bike shop and they're suggesting a steel crank arm, but I have a feeling that's a temporary solution.
edit: the bolt is also in perfect condition, the crank arm is starting to strip.
Last edited by Gecko77; 01-20-19 at 01:43 AM.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1074 Post(s)
Liked 295 Times
in
222 Posts
”Strip” in this setting is generally used to mean threads pulling, or wearing out.
I assume you’re talking about destroying the fit at the square taper.
The most common cause of crankarms working themselves loose is insuffficient torque at assembly. Once an arm has started to wobble it’s often a lost cause.
It doesn’t take much to destroy the fit.
Some have managed to save damaged cranks by using epoxy/chemical metal fillers on the faces. Some have managed to file the hole back to square.
The bolt coming loose is a consequence, not a cause.
Are you sure you have the right cranks for that BB?
There are two different tapers.
I assume you’re talking about destroying the fit at the square taper.
The most common cause of crankarms working themselves loose is insuffficient torque at assembly. Once an arm has started to wobble it’s often a lost cause.
It doesn’t take much to destroy the fit.
Some have managed to save damaged cranks by using epoxy/chemical metal fillers on the faces. Some have managed to file the hole back to square.
The bolt coming loose is a consequence, not a cause.
Are you sure you have the right cranks for that BB?
There are two different tapers.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 8,319
Bikes: '93 Trek 750, '92 Schwinn Crisscross, '93 Mongoose Alta
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1438 Post(s)
Liked 1,092 Times
in
723 Posts
Perhaps you should invest in a torque wrench so that you can adequately tighten the bolts; Your description indicates under-torqued fasteners.
#4
SE Wis
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 10,516
Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2731 Post(s)
Liked 3,358 Times
in
2,034 Posts
The M8 threaded bolt has never been tightened to the precise torque by my bike service shop, they tighten it to hell and I can only tighten it so much with a hex key, which clearly will not get me near the proper torque.
I used blue Loctite, let it settle for 72hrs, and on the first ride the bolt came loose again. Again, I could only use a hex key to tighten it.
I used blue Loctite, let it settle for 72hrs, and on the first ride the bolt came loose again. Again, I could only use a hex key to tighten it.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,683
Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Vortex Chorus 10, 1995 DeBernardi Cromor S/S
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times
in
446 Posts
In general, in the absence of a torque wrench, people tend to over-torque small fasteners and under-torque larger fasteners. There's no way on the planet that you'll achieve sufficient torque on the crank bolts with a hex key. Why only the NDS bolt is loosening is anyone's guess, but until you use the right torque, it's hard to consider any other cause. IIRC, the recommended torque on my square-drive cranks (Campag Chorus) is ~30 ft.lb, which is way beyond hex key territory
#6
Old fart
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,934
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 3,366 Times
in
1,915 Posts
The issue is damage to the crank arm. If the arm was ridden while loose, there is a strong possibility that the square broach in the arm has been damaged. If this is the case, you cannot expect the mounting bolt to reliably secure the arm to the spindle. Replace the arm and install with the proper torque and it should hold.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,999
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,791 Times
in
2,270 Posts
The non drive side crank arm's fit to the axle sees greater loads and more back and forth loads then the drive side does. remember that the drive side arm is directly connected to the chainrings/chain. So all it's drive forces go through the chainring/arm construction and very little is seen by the axle/arm fit. Additionally remember that the vast majority of riders don't really pull up on the back stroke, so the other arm will drive the back stroke arm up via the axle fit. The non drive side sees both these forces with each stroke. The drive side sees mostly only the force to pull up the non drive side. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
AndrewRStewart
#8
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: other Vancouver
Posts: 9,811
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 688 Times
in
367 Posts
As above, it's likely that you're not applying enough torque to the bolt. It has to be done when new or the crank arm will be damaged by normal riding forces.
They should be torqued to 300 to 400 in-lb.: https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...s-and-concepts
This is darn near impossible to achieve with a normal hex wrench. I use an 8mm hex socket in a ratchet handle and use both arms to scissor the wrench and crank arm together.
If your bike shop is not using a torque wrench to tighten the replacement crank arms in place, find a different bike shop.
They should be torqued to 300 to 400 in-lb.: https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...s-and-concepts
This is darn near impossible to achieve with a normal hex wrench. I use an 8mm hex socket in a ratchet handle and use both arms to scissor the wrench and crank arm together.
If your bike shop is not using a torque wrench to tighten the replacement crank arms in place, find a different bike shop.
__________________
Jeff Wills
Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
Jeff Wills
Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
#9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
”Strip” in this setting is generally used to mean threads pulling, or wearing out.
I assume you’re talking about destroying the fit at the square taper.
The most common cause of crankarms working themselves loose is insuffficient torque at assembly. Once an arm has started to wobble it’s often a lost cause.
It doesn’t take much to destroy the fit.
Some have managed to save damaged cranks by using epoxy/chemical metal fillers on the faces. Some have managed to file the hole back to square.
The bolt coming loose is a consequence, not a cause.
Are you sure you have the right cranks for that BB?
There are two different tapers.
I assume you’re talking about destroying the fit at the square taper.
The most common cause of crankarms working themselves loose is insuffficient torque at assembly. Once an arm has started to wobble it’s often a lost cause.
It doesn’t take much to destroy the fit.
Some have managed to save damaged cranks by using epoxy/chemical metal fillers on the faces. Some have managed to file the hole back to square.
The bolt coming loose is a consequence, not a cause.
Are you sure you have the right cranks for that BB?
There are two different tapers.
#10
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
As above, it's likely that you're not applying enough torque to the bolt. It has to be done when new or the crank arm will be damaged by normal riding forces.
They should be torqued to 300 to 400 in-lb.
This is darn near impossible to achieve with a normal hex wrench. I use an 8mm hex socket in a ratchet handle and use both arms to scissor the wrench and crank arm together.
If your bike shop is not using a torque wrench to tighten the replacement crank arms in place, find a different bike shop.
They should be torqued to 300 to 400 in-lb.
This is darn near impossible to achieve with a normal hex wrench. I use an 8mm hex socket in a ratchet handle and use both arms to scissor the wrench and crank arm together.
If your bike shop is not using a torque wrench to tighten the replacement crank arms in place, find a different bike shop.
Additional thanks to dabac and JohnDThompson!
#11
Bad example
Another possible problem is with the fit of the crank bolt in the spindle. I once had an old Campy BB spindle on which the drive side crank kept coming loose, no matter how much I tightened the crank bolt. I stopped immediately when I felt it, and I saw no evidence of damage to the crank. It turned out that the bolt hole in the spindle was loose, so the bolt just would not hold. Once I bought a new BB, I put the original cranks on that and bolted it up, with no loosening at all.
__________________
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
#12
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,331
Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked 406 Times
in
254 Posts
You rode it while loose. Now the crank taper-receivers are almost certainly damaged and you'll never get it to stay tight again. Doesn't matter if you locktite it or torque it to hell or not.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,999
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,791 Times
in
2,270 Posts
+1 on this point. I have seen customers who don't believe what I've told them. "I'll weld the dam nut, It won't move after that!" Well it's not that the nut moves but that the arm does via the tapered hole's changing dimensions/shape. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
AndrewRStewart
#14
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Damn, it seems the issue may be far worse than anticipated. Thanks for your insight dude!
#15
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,072
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1764 Post(s)
Liked 1,577 Times
in
910 Posts
Not really worse than you thought. Bottom brackets are <$25 for just about any generic. Are there plenty for way more dollars? Sure. Yours? Probably cheap.
A cheap torque wrench is less than $30
The bottom bracket socket, (assuming cartridge type bb) is under $20
Boat trailer axle grease is cheaper than dirt. Grease all your threads.
Under $75 dollars in total to do it yourself.
As far as the crank arms go. That could be pricey, but it doesn't have to be. Square taper cranks are out of fashion. Hollow Tech II, GXP, BB30, etc... is all the rage now.
If it were me, before I spent a dollar on anything new, I'd clean the interface area real good, apply a very light coating of grease on the taper of the original bb, slide the crank arm on. Lay the bike on the garage floor, back up the bottom bracket with a block of wood and give it a good hard whack with a heavy hammer to seat it good. I'd use a piece of wood or something to avoid marring the crank arm. Then use a long allen wrench and torque the dickens out of it with my foot. See how long that lasts. If it doesn't you were destined for a new set up anyway.
A cheap torque wrench is less than $30
The bottom bracket socket, (assuming cartridge type bb) is under $20
Boat trailer axle grease is cheaper than dirt. Grease all your threads.
Under $75 dollars in total to do it yourself.
As far as the crank arms go. That could be pricey, but it doesn't have to be. Square taper cranks are out of fashion. Hollow Tech II, GXP, BB30, etc... is all the rage now.
If it were me, before I spent a dollar on anything new, I'd clean the interface area real good, apply a very light coating of grease on the taper of the original bb, slide the crank arm on. Lay the bike on the garage floor, back up the bottom bracket with a block of wood and give it a good hard whack with a heavy hammer to seat it good. I'd use a piece of wood or something to avoid marring the crank arm. Then use a long allen wrench and torque the dickens out of it with my foot. See how long that lasts. If it doesn't you were destined for a new set up anyway.
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,872
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2350 Post(s)
Liked 1,727 Times
in
1,179 Posts
Not really worse than you thought. Bottom brackets are <$25 for just about any generic. Are there plenty for way more dollars? Sure. Yours? Probably cheap.
A cheap torque wrench is less than $30
The bottom bracket socket, (assuming cartridge type bb) is under $20
Boat trailer axle grease is cheaper than dirt. Grease all your threads.
Under $75 dollars in total to do it yourself.
As far as the crank arms go. That could be pricey, but it doesn't have to be. Square taper cranks are out of fashion. Hollow Tech II, GXP, BB30, etc... is all the rage now.
A cheap torque wrench is less than $30
The bottom bracket socket, (assuming cartridge type bb) is under $20
Boat trailer axle grease is cheaper than dirt. Grease all your threads.
Under $75 dollars in total to do it yourself.
As far as the crank arms go. That could be pricey, but it doesn't have to be. Square taper cranks are out of fashion. Hollow Tech II, GXP, BB30, etc... is all the rage now.
And +1 on the marine grease; it's water-resistant, and several LBSes around here swear by it. Available at any man-mall.
#17
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Aren't the bolt holes drilled and tapped directly into the spindle? I guess I never looked close enough.
If it's indeed a case of initial loose fit as suspected, the BB itself is probably fine. Hard steel BB, softer aluminum crank arm, the BB wins and the arm loses. As for crank arm cost, switching to another technology would be expensive, but square taper cranks are easily had at any bike co-op. Depending on concern about weight balance and aesthetics, the OP could even opt just to swap that NDS arm, since the DS is single speed. Sourcing a single orphaned arm with no need to match it gets you into the "donation to the co-op" price range.
And +1 on the marine grease; it's water-resistant, and several LBSes around here swear by it. Available at any man-mall.
If it's indeed a case of initial loose fit as suspected, the BB itself is probably fine. Hard steel BB, softer aluminum crank arm, the BB wins and the arm loses. As for crank arm cost, switching to another technology would be expensive, but square taper cranks are easily had at any bike co-op. Depending on concern about weight balance and aesthetics, the OP could even opt just to swap that NDS arm, since the DS is single speed. Sourcing a single orphaned arm with no need to match it gets you into the "donation to the co-op" price range.
And +1 on the marine grease; it's water-resistant, and several LBSes around here swear by it. Available at any man-mall.
examining the area myself. This thread gave me a mountain of info and I really appreciate it.
#18
Senior Member
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/...ng-cranks.html I use grease on the taper and a torque wrench and have never had a problem.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,872
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2350 Post(s)
Liked 1,727 Times
in
1,179 Posts
Okay, I recall decades ago, before the interwebzz, the "conventional wisdom" was that you lubricate the crank bolt/nut threads, but NOT the tapers. Has that changed? Was that bogus information then? What's the skinny?
#20
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,072
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1764 Post(s)
Liked 1,577 Times
in
910 Posts
Aluminum & steel don't play well together. Add to that the inconsistancy in the friction in the interface, galling of the surfaces and overcoming the friction of initial install & every time there after...When torquing bolts it's always best to know if it is intended to be lubricated or not...usually it has to do with "set & forget" or if it is a safety critical or field servicable item.
Square taper always fulfilled the safety sensative & field serviceable check boxes for me, so I always have. I've never had a problem & never gave it further thought. For others, maybe their concerns are it never be removed again. Or maybe they are ok not necessarily knowing if they overcame running torque to ensure it actually seated as far as it should. Maybe they feel the chances of galling is minimal, or have little concern for electrolysis, or whatever. Those people don't lube. In the real world, it probably has some oil or grease or something on it that was "left over" & is "good enough" to be ok. The real problems arise out of being truely bare & degreased. We are dealing with the worlds simpelist machine afterall. A speck of grease or not on reassembly is unlikely to cause a real problem either way.
In my field (aviation manufacturing) all fasteners have a specific torque procedure & nearly everything that moves is usually lubricated with grease in some manner. The rest of the structural fasteners are lubricated with cetyl-alcohol. Consistancy of execution is why a friction interface gets lubrication. So I do as I think the engineers at my work would expect.
Square taper always fulfilled the safety sensative & field serviceable check boxes for me, so I always have. I've never had a problem & never gave it further thought. For others, maybe their concerns are it never be removed again. Or maybe they are ok not necessarily knowing if they overcame running torque to ensure it actually seated as far as it should. Maybe they feel the chances of galling is minimal, or have little concern for electrolysis, or whatever. Those people don't lube. In the real world, it probably has some oil or grease or something on it that was "left over" & is "good enough" to be ok. The real problems arise out of being truely bare & degreased. We are dealing with the worlds simpelist machine afterall. A speck of grease or not on reassembly is unlikely to cause a real problem either way.
In my field (aviation manufacturing) all fasteners have a specific torque procedure & nearly everything that moves is usually lubricated with grease in some manner. The rest of the structural fasteners are lubricated with cetyl-alcohol. Consistancy of execution is why a friction interface gets lubrication. So I do as I think the engineers at my work would expect.
Last edited by base2; 01-25-19 at 06:07 AM.
#21
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: other Vancouver
Posts: 9,811
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 688 Times
in
367 Posts
I guess I didn't learn the conventional wisdom back then- we always greased up the bearings, put things together, adjusted the bearings, and torqued the crankarms. The tapers probably had a bit of grease on them, but we just wiped off any excess before delivering to the customer.
__________________
Jeff Wills
Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
Jeff Wills
Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..