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H Plus Son Archetype Rims - Good Rims for a Larger Guy?

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H Plus Son Archetype Rims - Good Rims for a Larger Guy?

Old 01-25-19, 03:43 PM
  #1  
FordTrax
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H Plus Son Archetype Rims - Good Rims for a Larger Guy?

I would like to get a better wheelset for my endurance road bike. I am a larger guy at 215lbs and am looking for something that would take 32 spokes front and rear. Obviously I would like a fairly light wheelset but realize at my weight I am not going to have to compromise. So I guess a more important factor to me is the strength and durability of the rims. I run 32mm 700c tires so the H Plus Son Archetype rims are good there with a 19mm inter width they should work pretty nice with 32mm tires. I run about 80 psi in the tires and currently run tubes.

The Archetype rims run around $70 which I guess is pretty middle of the road. Just wonder how they are going to hold up over the long haul with about 240 lbs on them counting me and the bike itself.
If anyone has any feedback on these rims I sure would appreciate your thoughts. Or if you have other rim suggestions that would be great too.
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Old 01-25-19, 03:57 PM
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They are well-made rims and should be fine.

HED Belgium Plus might be even better.
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Old 01-25-19, 04:17 PM
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Looks like a nice rim.

I just bought a set of wheels with Velocity Dyads (525g) with the same general requirements you stated heavier rider, 32mm tire capable, 32+ holes, tubes, etc., except 36 hole and am very happy They are a little less deep @ 22mm. I do like that the rim you are looking at has a raised braking area. My original wheelset came with Alexrims A23 rims, but I do not notice the small weight increase.
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Old 01-25-19, 04:43 PM
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215 isn't bad. Or, I suppose... could be worse...

The H+Archtype are highly regarded.

There are lots of options out there. Hard to say which one is "better".

I'm working on my next "touring" build. I chose to go with the Velocity A23 & A23 OC.

I've come to like the "Off Center" options on the rear which is available with the A23, as well as the Asymmetric DT rims, and a couple of other brands. With the Velocity, I also chose 36h rear, 32h front.

I have mixed opinions about "tubeless ready". It is a bit of a pain with tube type tires. On the other hand, we'll see more tubeless tires in the future. I had some problems with my first experiment with a Schwalbe Pro One. My next experiment will be the Pirelli Cinturato Velo, but I haven't gotten there yet.

Anyway, the A23 & A23 OC are tubeless ready. The Archtype is not. The H+SON Hydra is a little wider, and is tubeless ready.
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Old 01-25-19, 05:04 PM
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The Mavic A119 fits the bill. At your weight plus the bike and accessories I would recommend 36 double butted spokes.
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Old 01-25-19, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FordTrax View Post
I would like to get a better wheelset for my endurance road bike. I am a larger guy at 215lbs and am looking for something that would take 32 spokes front and rear. Obviously I would like a fairly light wheelset but realize at my weight I am not going to have to compromise. So I guess a more important factor to me is the strength and durability of the rims. I run 32mm 700c tires so the H Plus Son Archetype rims are good there with a 19mm inter width they should work pretty nice with 32mm tires. I run about 80 psi in the tires and currently run tubes.

The Archetype rims run around $70 which I guess is pretty middle of the road. Just wonder how they are going to hold up over the long haul with about 240 lbs on them counting me and the bike itself.
If anyone has any feedback on these rims I sure would appreciate your thoughts. Or if you have other rim suggestions that would be great too.
Have you seen this rim comparison?

Alloy Rim Roundup - Fairwheel Bikes Blog

Unfortunately, it is undated (as far as I can tell), so I'm not sure how accurate it is today.

Now, to your inquiry... You state, "Obviously I would like a fairly light wheelset ..." but then go on to stress durability. Usually, the two goals are mutually exclusive, unless cost is not an option. As the engineer says, "Strong, light, cheap. Pick two!" In other words, the really strong, but light wheelset either doesn't exist, or is priced in the stratosphere. For a bigger rider setting up an endurance bike with durability in mind, you usually have to compromise on weight. (But not always. You may be able to achieve everything you desire by purchasing very high-end carbon rims, so if cost isn't an option, then you may be able to get everything you want.)

Usually, the common practice with wheel strength is this: increase rim width to achieve strength, given all other parameters are equal. Thereafter, add spokes. Thus, touring bikes and tandems (supporting high loads) usually have wider rims with higher spoke counts (and thus heavier wheels). However, it depends on what you define as durable. No broken spokes within a reasonable timeframe? Or no bends requiring wheel repair within that timeframe? Or both (which is perfectly reasonable). The problem is, you may have difficulty trying to increase durability if you stick to meeting the "lightweight" requirement. Give up some weight and you'll get better durability.

If you have the budget for a custom wheel build, then consider your options. You may want to choose a wider rear rim with 36 spokes and go with a narrower front rim with 32 spokes. The reason for this is that rear wheels today exhibit a lot of dish and they must support about 60% of the rider's weight. Bummer that the weaker of the two wheels (due to dish) has to take more abuse! The problem with this is that you'll need different hub drillings, which may increase price. Either way, go with butted spokes and brass nipples to achieve the best wheel build. (Butted spokes are not chosen for weight savings, but rather wheel durability. The weight savings is a nice ancillary bonus.)

And this suggested solution says nothing about your starting point. You could possibly achieve much better wheel quality using the EXACT SAME rims and hubs and spoke count simply by using higher quality butted spokes and having the wheels built professionally to very high standards. Machine-built OEM wheels that come stock on most bikes leave a lot to be desired (uneven spoke tensions, poorly stress-relieved and REALLY cheap spokes that fail quickly). So if you've suffered wheel issues in the past, it may simply be that you've fallen victim to corner cutting by the manufacturer at the wheelbuilding stage of production.

I hope this helps. And good luck!
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Old 01-25-19, 05:51 PM
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Off-Center option?
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Old 01-25-19, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post
Off-Center option?

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Old 01-25-19, 07:57 PM
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That rim looks OK for 32c tires and doesn't have goofball eyelets.
It is 1 mm narrower than Dyad rims and about the same weight. The wider Dyads are better for 35 mm tires for sure.
I have used nothing but Dyads for 6 years, 50,000 wheel miles and still as good as new. My hubs are heavy IGH, SA drum brakes and a Rohloff14 with 32 spokes and 15,500 miles. The rest are 36H. I have done 2 tours totaling 8,100 miles with the bike + me = 290 lbs. Other days I am still at 243 lbs doing centuries. I trust them at 46 mph. ha
Nothing is better IMO. I used WH 2.3/ 2.0 spokes with my SA hubs. I only use brass locking nipples also, fool proof.
I built all my wheels myself without a truing stand, SLOW ha.. I put electrical tape on the frame to get the round set.

An offset rim for the rear derailleurs might make sense and/ or 2.3 head spokes on the DS. I would get 36H hubs if you haven't got them yet.

Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 01-26-19 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 01-25-19, 09:38 PM
  #10  
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...I ride on 32 spoke rims all the time around here, on wheels I build myself. I weigh in at 250# on a good day.

Having said that, if I were worried about the most durable, bestest solution for heavy weight and use, I'd follow the suggestions you've already gotten on 36 spoke hubs and rims. I have a set of H plus Sons archetypes I built up in the fall, but I have not yet had a chance to put them on a bike and use them. They appear to be pretty bombproof, built up easily, and are relatively wide, in terms of typical road bike rims. But I can't speak to actual use yet.

When I bought them, there was some one selling them for 50 bucks each one on E-bay. I forget the name of the seller.
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Old 01-26-19, 05:36 AM
  #11  
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A few more things to add to what makes for a strong wheel. Rim depth is important. A rim that is 19mm high is easier to flex vertically than one that is 30mm high. Add to that the higher profile has more material and that also affects strength. Now add to profile and mass, shorter spokes. Spokes will be 10mm shorter which translates to a stiffer wheel vertically, adding to strength. Width, depth (rim profile), mass, and spoke length all add up to create wheel durability.

Example: On my long commuter/touring bike the rear wheel uses an Araya DP18, one beast of a rim. Profile (rim depth) is 30mm, width 20mm. 32 hole drilling. The thing must be around 600 grams in weight, but I don't know for sure, all I know is that it is heavy and super strong. Originally built for my friend who was seriously overweight at 290 pounds. Put it on his comfort bike and together we rode nearly every day for a season. He has moved on to a road bike, and I have been using the wheel on my bike for 10 years now. Never have trued it (attributed to build quality).

My apologies for being long winded here. One more note, I only use 2.0 spokes as double butted spokes do not seem to hold up for the heavier riders I build for. I will use them on front wheels as the load level is much less.

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Old 01-27-19, 07:47 PM
  #12  
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I weigh 200 and have H Plus Son Archetype rims. I have ridden them 1500 miles so far. Checking them on my trueing stand recently, I found they needed only very minor touching up.
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Old 01-27-19, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
A few more things to add to what makes for a strong wheel. Rim depth is important. A rim that is 19mm high is easier to flex vertically than one that is 30mm high. Add to that the higher profile has more material and that also affects strength. Now add to profile and mass, shorter spokes. Spokes will be 10mm shorter which translates to a stiffer wheel vertically, adding to strength. Width, depth (rim profile), mass, and spoke length all add up to create wheel durability.

Example: On my long commuter/touring bike the rear wheel uses an Araya DP18, one beast of a rim. Profile (rim depth) is 30mm, width 20mm. 32 hole drilling. The thing must be around 600 grams in weight, but I don't know for sure, all I know is that it is heavy and super strong. Originally built for my friend who was seriously overweight at 290 pounds. Put it on his comfort bike and together we rode nearly every day for a season. He has moved on to a road bike, and I have been using the wheel on my bike for 10 years now. Never have trued it (attributed to build quality).

My apologies for being long winded here. One more note, I only use 2.0 spokes as double butted spokes do not seem to hold up for the heavier riders I build for. I will use them on front wheels as the load level is much less.
Huh. I've built all my wheels with 2.0 DB spokes for years. I haven't broken one in 20 years- and I'm 240+ pounds of recumbent-riding Large Galoot.
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Old 01-31-19, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
A few more things to add to what makes for a strong wheel. Rim depth is important. A rim that is 19mm high is easier to flex vertically than one that is 30mm high. Add to that the higher profile has more material and that also affects strength. Now add to profile and mass, shorter spokes. Spokes will be 10mm shorter which translates to a stiffer wheel vertically, adding to strength. Width, depth (rim profile), mass, and spoke length all add up to create wheel durability.

Example: On my long commuter/touring bike the rear wheel uses an Araya DP18, one beast of a rim. Profile (rim depth) is 30mm, width 20mm. 32 hole drilling. The thing must be around 600 grams in weight, but I don't know for sure, all I know is that it is heavy and super strong. Originally built for my friend who was seriously overweight at 290 pounds. Put it on his comfort bike and together we rode nearly every day for a season. He has moved on to a road bike, and I have been using the wheel on my bike for 10 years now. Never have trued it (attributed to build quality).

My apologies for being long winded here. One more note, I only use 2.0 spokes as double butted spokes do not seem to hold up for the heavier riders I build for. I will use them on front wheels as the load level is much less.
I take issue with you on two points. Shorter spokes do not build a stronger wheel. Stiffer, maybe. But that's up to debate. The tension wheel's strengths derives from spoke elasticity and shorter spokes have less elasticity than their longer counterparts. Which is why tying and soldering spokes is no longer considered a benefit - it reduces the effective elastic section of the spoke.

Similarly, straight-gauge spokes also are less elastic, reducing their contribution to wheel strength and durability. It's a common misconception that "bigger is better" when it comes to spokes. Bigger (larger diameter) at the elbows and nipples is good, but not in the middle section, where elasticity is beneficial (within limits, of course). And thus, this is why Jobst Brandt/Wheelsmith and other high-end builders recommend butted spokes for the very application you avoid them: big riders, loaded touring, or all three: a big tandem touring team. In other words, lighter butted spokes are not used for weight savings to appease the "weight weenies;" they're used because they build better wheels. I've been using butted spokes on my road and mountain tandems for over 25 years without issue. I've destroyed six rear hubs mountain tandeming and have yet to have one traditional wheel failure (spoke breakage, bending, need of major truing, rim failure, etc.). So my experience is the exact opposite of yours: butted spokes are the best choice.

Butted spokes' better elasticity is a big benefit with today's extremely dished rear wheels as well. With high dish, spoke tensions on the NDS tend to be precariously low. With straight gauge spokes, they will go to zero tension more easily through the wheel's revolution cycle. A spoke going through a cycle of, say, 50-90 kgf (net change of 40kgf) will last, whereas a spoke going through a 0-40kgf (same net 40kgf delta) will fail prematurely. This is a common cause of many wheel problems, two being loosening nipples and premature spoke failure. Rim failure may also be a result because the rim at the spoke hole is also going through a tension/no tension cycle that leads to premature fatigue failure. So maximum dish is another reason butted spokes are a better choice.

For this reason, I refuse to take the time to custom build wheels with anything but butted spokes. Going to all the trouble of building quality wheels with prepped and lubricated nipples, multiple and repeated stress relieving, bringing to optimal final and even tensions with use of a calibrated spoke tensionometer is wasted on straight gauge spokes. (Well, not totally wasted, because you can still build a solid wheel. But why spend the time, energy and charge a premium for anything but the most ideal spoke?)

Despite the ample data supporting butted spoke advantages, the misconception about "thick" and "short" spokes building "stronger" wheels persists.
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Old 01-31-19, 02:38 PM
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We mentioned Asymmetrical/Off Center (OC) rims.

Another vendor I bumped into was WTB. Mainly disc brake MTB rims of various widths. Most seem to be 32h, and eyeletted.
For Asymmetric/OC rims:

DT
Velocity
Forza
WTB
Shimano also uses off-center rims on several of their OEM wheels.

The off-center rims provide advantages of evening out tension between the two sides of the wheel, and helping with dishing and rear derailleur clearance.

I have wondered if they induce a twisting element, but apparently that isn't a major issue.
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Old 02-01-19, 09:43 PM
  #16  
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I am of maybe a higher weight then the 215 and I have Archetypes on my Ti road bike (and fixed gear soon enough) and the TB14s on my Phil Wood and haven't had any issues (nice and true). Granted the HED Belgium Plus would be the top choice but I will say sadly they don't do a hard ano grey finish. I am going with those on another project I am working on. It should be very heavily noted all my wheels listed are handbuilt by a professional mechanic/wheel builder.

Honestly I am quite impressed with H+Son at the price and weight and looks. Everything seems to be of good solid quality. If I could go back in time I would probably have done my Single Speed/Fixed Gear RandoCross FunTime Machine with H+Son rims. Nothing against the quality of the WTB ChrisCross rims (or WTB rims in general) they are fine but they stopped making them and the bike is rim brake (when I added the dynamo I had to delace the old hub so I could re-use the rim since nobody had them anywhere in stock)
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Old 02-02-19, 06:04 AM
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I have only built one wheel set with the Archetypes, but I was quite impressed with the quality. The customer who rides them is a big guy and he is having no issues.
The seam is so nicely and smoothly joined that if you didn't know where it was, I bet you couldn't find it. Perfectly round and flat with no hop at the joint.
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Old 02-04-19, 10:56 PM
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I built up a set of Archetypes with 32 spokes for our tandem. They have 5,000 plus miles on them including gravel roads. They have not needed to be trued since the initial build. We are a 290 lb team on a 28.5 lb tandem. For tires we are using Michelin Pro 4s size 25. The tires measure 27 mm on the Archetype rim.
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Old 02-05-19, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
Have you seen this rim comparison?

Alloy Rim Roundup - Fairwheel Bikes Blog

Unfortunately, it is undated (as far as I can tell), so I'm not sure how accurate it is today.
2014, if you know where to look.

I still enjoy reading that post, but things have come a long way in the last few years, mostly for the better. It would be cool if they did a 5th anniversary update!
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