Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Custom Wheels from Colorado Cyclist

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Custom Wheels from Colorado Cyclist

Old 03-14-19, 05:52 PM
  #1  
sooni
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 88

Bikes: 2018 BMC SLR02 - 2017 Genesis Equilibrium

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Custom Wheels from Colorado Cyclist

I just received a set of custom EASTON R90 SL wheels with Ultegra Hubs and DT Competition spokes. The wheels are round, true and dished nicely, but I have some concerns about the spoke tension on the rear. My understanding is that less than a 10% (or 5) variance is acceptable for a custom set of wheels.

I bought these so that I had something low maintenance and super reliable to travel with.

I did contact customer support, and was assured by the person who built the wheels that these variances were up to standard but I still have my doubts. Should I be concerned about the following readings?


Last edited by sooni; 03-14-19 at 05:55 PM. Reason: picture in wrong place
sooni is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 05:54 PM
  #2  
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 2,683

Bikes: Homebuilt steel

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Where did that data come from?
Nessism is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 05:55 PM
  #3  
sooni
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 88

Bikes: 2018 BMC SLR02 - 2017 Genesis Equilibrium

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
Where did that data come from?
First thing I did out the box was take a reading with my tensionmeter.
sooni is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 06:07 PM
  #4  
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 2,683

Bikes: Homebuilt steel

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Seems like a setup to fail. Buy wheels from a bicycle big box store and then scrutinize afterwards.
Nessism is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 06:07 PM
  #5  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,723
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1522 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times in 7 Posts
There was a time (years ago) when I used to order wheels from CC.
Then I had a wheel start cracking around the spoke holes soon after I started using it.
CC refused to warranty it. They expected me to pay full price for them to build a replacement.

I had already read the Jobst Brandt book, and had been considering learning to build my own.
This prompted me to order a truing stand and a tension meter.
When the tools arrived, I measured the tension of the wheel with the cracking.
It was literally off the chart that Park supplied to convert the tension number to kgf.
I have built my own wheels ever since.
And for the record, I am not done adjusting tension until all the spokes on the same side are within 10%.
Shimagnolo is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 06:12 PM
  #6  
sooni
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 88

Bikes: 2018 BMC SLR02 - 2017 Genesis Equilibrium

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
Seems like a setup to fail. Buy wheels from a bicycle big box store and then scrutinize afterwards.
Not sure I follow. Do you think this needs to be de-tensioned and retrued before I start using?
sooni is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 06:15 PM
  #7  
sooni
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 88

Bikes: 2018 BMC SLR02 - 2017 Genesis Equilibrium

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
There was a time (years ago) when I used to order wheels from CC.
Then I had a wheel start cracking around the spoke holes soon after I started using it.
CC refused to warranty it. They expected me to pay full price for them to build a replacement.

I had already read the Jobst Brandt book, and had been considering learning to build my own.
This prompted me to order a truing stand and a tension meter.
When the tools arrived, I measured the tension of the wheel with the cracking.
It was literally off the chart that Park supplied to convert the tension number to kgf.
I have built my own wheels ever since.
And for the record, I am not done adjusting tension until all the spokes on the same side are within 10%.
I have been toying with older wheels, andstudying building. Before I ordered these I planned to attempt the same build. I have all the tools, but when I added up the cost for the exact same materials it came out to about the same so I thought why not just have them built and maintain them myself afterwards. That was part of the reason for the 32 spoke, competition setup. Should be a simple build no?

Customer support mentioned that I have a two year guarantee, but I would imagine that an issue with spoke tension would result in failure over a longer period of time whenat that point I would be SOL.
sooni is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 06:32 PM
  #8  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,723
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1522 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by sooni View Post
I have been toying with older wheels, andstudying building. Before I ordered these I planned to attempt the same build. I have all the tools, but when I added up the cost for the exact same materials it came out to about the same so I thought why not just have them built and maintain them myself afterwards. That was part of the reason for the 32 spoke, competition setup. Should be a simple build no?

Customer support mentioned that I have a two year guarantee, but I would imagine that an issue with spoke tension would result in failure over a longer period of time whenat that point I would be SOL.
I don't build my own wheels (and entire bikes) to save money up front.
I build them so:
- I can get the exact parts I want, and am not limited to what a shop carries.
- I can re-use perfectly good used parts. (Try getting an online shop to re-use spokes).
- I know the job is done right.
- I can repair things in a fraction of the time it would take an online shop or LBS to do it.

The last time I had a mishap that dropped a chain into the spokes, I had the wheel rebuilt with the damaged spokes replaced in a couple hours.
Over the long run, I am certain it does save me money.
Shimagnolo is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 06:53 PM
  #9  
sooni
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 88

Bikes: 2018 BMC SLR02 - 2017 Genesis Equilibrium

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
I don't build my own wheels (and entire bikes) to save money up front.
I build them so:
- I can get the exact parts I want, and am not limited to what a shop carries.
- I can re-use perfectly good used parts. (Try getting an online shop to re-use spokes).
- I know the job is done right.
- I can repair things in a fraction of the time it would take an online shop or LBS to do it.

The last time I had a mishap that dropped a chain into the spokes, I had the wheel rebuilt with the damaged spokes replaced in a couple hours.
Over the long run, I am certain it does save me money.
No argument here. Although I did get exactly what I wanted as far as the specs go, only difference is that it looks like I will have to retension and retrue to finish the job.

Had I known that this company pushes wheels out without precision I would have started the job myself. I was sure that the response from customer support would not pass the publicity test but wanted to confirm,and perhaps let other potential buyers know the risks.

Would you suggest I loosen up the NDS, get the DS within 10 or 5% then go from there or do you think this requires a full rebuild?

Last edited by sooni; 03-14-19 at 06:56 PM.
sooni is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 08:11 PM
  #10  
HerrKaLeun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,283

Bikes: Giant Toughroad SLR1 and Motobecane Sturgis NX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
those are butted spokes, right? Are you sure you measured correctly every time? the thinner part is not mach larger than the tensionmeter is long and one can easily have one of those emtal pins at the butted (thicker) part of the spoke.

if the wheel is radially and laterally perfect, i assume the machine built it to true and just achieved a given average tension. With imperfections measuring and in material, a hand wheelbuilder can sacrifice trueness (let's say a mm) to achieve equal tension, which is more important.
HerrKaLeun is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 08:36 PM
  #11  
sooni
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 88

Bikes: 2018 BMC SLR02 - 2017 Genesis Equilibrium

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
those are butted spokes, right? Are you sure you measured correctly every time? the thinner part is not mach larger than the tensionmeter is long and one can easily have one of those emtal pins at the butted (thicker) part of the spoke.

if the wheel is radially and laterally perfect, i assume the machine built it to true and just achieved a given average tension. With imperfections measuring and in material, a hand wheelbuilder can sacrifice trueness (let's say a mm) to achieve equal tension, which is more important.
Yes they are double butted, all measured in the centre. These were built by a custom wheelbuilder.
sooni is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 08:38 PM
  #12  
wgscott
VectorPotential sensitive
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: The Timbers of Fennario (CL77)
Posts: 4,546

Bikes: Steel

Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 34 Posts
Do you have another wheel you can use as a positive control (i.e., one you know is good to see what kind of variance it has)?
wgscott is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 08:45 PM
  #13  
HerrKaLeun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,283

Bikes: Giant Toughroad SLR1 and Motobecane Sturgis NX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by sooni View Post
Yes they are double butted, all measured in the centre. These were built by a custom wheelbuilder.
custom wheelbuilder = each spoke has its custom tension 😎
HerrKaLeun is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 08:50 PM
  #14  
Marcus_Ti 
Frozen Solid.
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 4,533

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1852 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Either your data is wrong (measurements taken incorrectly) or your tool not calibrated any more (happens with spring scales) or their spreadsheet's math is wrong (using the wrong conversion factor)--or some mixture of all of them....because the R90SL rim is rated to 122KGF. If the readings were actually so far high--180KGF+!, I'd expect spoke hole deformation and rim failure.

Last edited by Marcus_Ti; 03-14-19 at 08:53 PM.
Marcus_Ti is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 08:51 PM
  #15  
Bill Kapaun
Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 10,671

Bikes: 86 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 619 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
WHICH DT Competition spokes?
They make 2 different gauges. 14/15 & 15/16.
https://www.coloradocyclist.com/dt-swiss-spokes
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 08:56 PM
  #16  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,143

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1895 Post(s)
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
You sure you're reading your chart right? It's not too hard to lose your place on the TM-1 chart between spokes and get a value from the wrong row or column. (I'm not too proud to admit that I'll use strips of painter's tape to keep me in the right lane for spoke gauge. )

If I got that wheel in the mail, I'd put it on the stand, try to even out the tensions while keeping it true, then step it all down a bit. The max tension spec is only about 120kgf.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-14-19, 09:53 PM
  #17  
Bill Kapaun
Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 10,671

Bikes: 86 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 619 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Either your data is wrong (measurements taken incorrectly) or your tool not calibrated any more (happens with spring scales) or their spreadsheet's math is wrong (using the wrong conversion factor)--or some mixture of all of them....because the R90SL rim is rated to 122KGF. If the readings were actually so far high--180KGF+!, I'd expect spoke hole deformation and rim failure.
+1
Tensions that high would result in the spoke wrench being WAY TOO HARD to turn. It would be hard to ignore that by anyone that's built a few wheels.
Thus my previous question about spoke gauge. Did you measure the actual gauge with the PARK "notch" tool?
It's easy to read the conversion chart wrong by a row.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 03:55 AM
  #18  
sooni
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 88

Bikes: 2018 BMC SLR02 - 2017 Genesis Equilibrium

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
+1
Tensions that high would result in the spoke wrench being WAY TOO HARD to turn. It would be hard to ignore that by anyone that's built a few wheels.
Thus my previous question about spoke gauge. Did you measure the actual gauge with the PARK "notch" tool?
It's easy to read the conversion chart wrong by a row.
Perhaps they followed Easton's way of building by tensioning the DS to the max then then dishing and truing using only the non-drive side spokes?.... I can only find out by loosening up the drive side, which I planned on doing anyway.

This is a 4 month old park TM-1 which was measured up against one used at a shop. When I opened the box for the wheels and did a ping test I noticed something out of whack,then proceeded to measure.

These are the DT Competitions (2 -1.8- 2). I used Competition Race on the front.

I have gone over the measurements several times and the readings I presented are what they are. As far as the KGF, I used park tool's online calculator and plugged in an 1.8 gauge steel round spoke.

For some reason Colorado Cyclist seemed to think those readings were good, as I sent them the exact photo as in the OP.

Last edited by sooni; 03-15-19 at 01:43 PM. Reason: removed quote
sooni is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 04:19 AM
  #19  
trailangel
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 3,475

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
I have to agree with several other posts.
Tension up to 186 is too high.
I've had the same, ... tension up to 170 and low of 105 on drive side 32 hole wheel
on a bike I bought.... took it apart.
Maybe a machine made your wheels?
trailangel is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 04:29 AM
  #20  
sooni
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 88

Bikes: 2018 BMC SLR02 - 2017 Genesis Equilibrium

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
You sure you're reading your chart right? It's not too hard to lose your place on the TM-1 chart between spokes and get a value from the wrong row or column. (I'm not too proud to admit that I'll use strips of painter's tape to keep me in the right lane for spoke gauge. )

If I got that wheel in the mail, I'd put it on the stand, try to even out the tensions while keeping it true, then step it all down a bit. The max tension spec is only about 120kgf.
Yep, I checked the site and 120kgf is the max, now I am concerned about the front wheel, and why Colorado Cyclist did not question my readings, when they are clearly out of spec.

Here is the front wheel with DT Competition Race spokes (they got it within 15):


sooni is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 04:35 AM
  #21  
sooni
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 88

Bikes: 2018 BMC SLR02 - 2017 Genesis Equilibrium

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
I have to agree with several other posts.
Tension up to 186 is too high.
I've had the same, ... tension up to 170 and low of 105 on drive side 32 hole wheel
on a bike I bought.... took it apart.
Maybe a machine made your wheels?
No this was by a custom wheelbuilder at Colorado Cyclist, who has checked my readings and claimed they were acceptable. I have the emails to confirm. Not sure if I should take apart or send back, but I would imagine that they would only accept premium shipping that I would have to pay for from Canada.
sooni is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 04:39 AM
  #22  
trailangel
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 3,475

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
I would keep contacting them, and have them pay the return shipping plus refund your money.

I realize it's a custom hand build, but these numbers look like a machine built them.

Last edited by trailangel; 03-15-19 at 04:44 AM.
trailangel is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 12:03 PM
  #23  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,143

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1895 Post(s)
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
I would keep contacting them, and have them pay the return shipping plus refund your money.

I realize it's a custom hand build, but these numbers look like a machine built them.
+1. The only time I (an amateur wheel builder with less than a dozen wheels to my credit) can't keep a wheel within 10% is usually when there is a jog at the joint, and I have to fudge the tensions slightly in that region to get it to run a little straighter. It doesn't even look like the OP's wheel builder can point to that as an excuse, because I would expect the tension to be higher than average on on side near the joint, and lower than average for the corresponding spoke on the other side, and vice versa on the other side of the joint. Here, it's all over the place with no rhyme or reason.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498

Last edited by ThermionicScott; 03-15-19 at 12:06 PM.
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 12:39 PM
  #24  
Marcus_Ti 
Frozen Solid.
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 4,533

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1852 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
+1. The only time I (an amateur wheel builder with less than a dozen wheels to my credit) can't keep a wheel within 10% is usually when there is a jog at the joint, and I have to fudge the tensions slightly in that region to get it to run a little straighter. It doesn't even look like the OP's wheel builder can point to that as an excuse, because I would expect the tension to be higher than average on on side near the joint, and lower than average for the corresponding spoke on the other side, and vice versa on the other side of the joint. Here, it's all over the place with no rhyme or reason.
Presuming any of the tension readings are accurate--they point to a bad batch of rims....because the R90SL is a nice rim and has a great record as such.

The DS is sky high and uneven....but the NDS is barely acceptable. Makes me wonder if when the wheel was tensioned they found that with the DS at spec the NDS was way too low, so compensated by jacking the tension up ridiculously....and all the variance is due to the rim starting to fail.
Marcus_Ti is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 12:48 PM
  #25  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 40,874

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 182 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6543 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 51 Times in 47 Posts
Another computer science graduate with a bicycle ...
fietsbob is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.