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Straight Gauge or Double-Butted Spokes?

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Straight Gauge or Double-Butted Spokes?

Old 04-11-19, 05:53 PM
  #26  
TiHabanero
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From the DT Swiss website. It reflects my experience in the shop.

" Is there any significant loss in strength between a J-bend or a straight-pull spoke in real life?
J-bends spokes tend to suffer more breakage issues due to poor build quality and low spoke tension. Also, some hubs have spokes holes too large, which causes poor fit of the elbow. Most of the time you can chalk up premature J-bend spoke breakage to corners being cut in the wheel-building process. For example: it's always surprising to me to see a shop build wheels without the use of a spoke tensiometer. To me, that's like trying to build a house without a tape measure!."

Another tidbit of information is the forming of the butted spoke compacts the middle section of the spoke, pushing the grain together.

My body weight is 230 and I only use straight gauge spokes. Have zero issues until I bend a rim and then they start popping. Replace the rim and all is good again. Have at least 60,000 miles on my bikes and only a bent rim has caused spoke breakage with the exception of Wheelsmith spokes. They do not fit tight enough in the hub holes and break very easily.
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Old 04-12-19, 08:31 AM
  #27  
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Thanks again to all for your input.
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Old 04-13-19, 08:50 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post

Another tidbit of information is the forming of the butted spoke compacts the middle section of the spoke, pushing the grain together.
That “tidbit” has been out there for a while and it has been very wrong. Metals can’t be compressed. The act of drawing the spoke might change the grain structure but it doesn’t “push the grains together”. There is no void between grains. The implication of pushing the grain together is that the density of the metal is increased. That is impossible.
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Old 04-14-19, 01:58 AM
  #29  
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The other things to do when you are lacing or replacing spokes is to set the outside J bends with a small hammer after applying some tension, and to stress relieve the spoke late in the tensioning process, this helps seat the spoke head and stops flexing at the bend.
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Old 04-14-19, 10:38 AM
  #30  
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Thank you Trevtassie.
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Old 04-14-19, 10:55 AM
  #31  
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And adding to minutiae, in the Rohloff service handbook , they suggest filing off
The flashing left by the spoke head forming machine, (back side of the head)
so as to not have it make an impression in the hub flange start creating a stress riser,

and stress risers in aluminum has been found to grow into a crack.. ..
(not just in 1 brand , or only hubs, but generally )
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Old 04-14-19, 11:41 PM
  #32  
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Fietsbob,
Makes sense. Will do when I relace the wheel. I think I'm gonna' use the SAPIM "STRONG" single-butted spokes with the 2.3mm hub-end diameter. It should fill the holes better and have less movement and stress at the J-bend. Again, thanks to all for your input.
Jon
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Old 04-15-19, 05:54 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Jon T View Post
Fietsbob,
Makes sense. Will do when I relace the wheel. I think I'm gonna' use the SAPIM "STRONG" single-butted spokes with the 2.3mm hub-end diameter. It should fill the holes better and have less movement and stress at the J-bend. Again, thanks to all for your input.
Jon
Hi Jon,
You need to be careful with the Sapim Strongs, I've used them for a full wheel build and they were a PITA on the NDS, I couldn't get the DS tight enough to keep the NDS tight enough to stop unscrewing without using wick in loctite 290. Once they were loctited though they were good, didn't budge. But ideally you'd use the Strongs on the DS and a thinner spoke on the NDS.
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Old 04-15-19, 06:08 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
And adding to minutiae, in the Rohloff service handbook , they suggest filing off
The flashing left by the spoke head forming machine, (back side of the head)
so as to not have it make an impression in the hub flange start creating a stress riser,

and stress risers in aluminum has been found to grow into a crack.. ..
(not just in 1 brand , or only hubs, but generally )
Mostly that's because of the Rohloff hub being turned, not forged, so the flanges are prone to cracking.. It's also why Rohloff came up with the flange reinforcing rings.The filing helps makes a bad situation better.
It's strange, but mass produced hubs can sometimes be stronger than bespoke ones.
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Old 04-15-19, 07:42 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
Hi Jon,
You need to be careful with the Sapim Strongs, I've used them for a full wheel build and they were a PITA on the NDS, I couldn't get the DS tight enough to keep the NDS tight enough to stop unscrewing without using wick in loctite 290. Once they were loctited though they were good, didn't budge. But ideally you'd use the Strongs on the DS and a thinner spoke on the NDS.
Good to know. Thank you, Sir, for the first-hand experience info. I will follow your advice and lace the "Strongs" on the DS and the triple-butted "Force" on the NDS. I read about that combination a few nights ago. It's great to have the confirmation of the info.
G'day Mate.
Jon
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Old 04-15-19, 10:08 AM
  #36  
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Sounds like a plan. Now if any spokes break, it won't be their fault.
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Old 04-16-19, 01:46 PM
  #37  
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A lot of good advice above, especially using different spoke diameters on the DS vs NDS. I'm surprised that more people don't do this since it addresses a fundamental problem with rear wheels. If you don't want to spend money on a spoke tensiometer, try out the iPhone app "Tensioner". It's cheap and it works, though it does take a bit of time to figure out the proper technique for getting a tone (read the instructions very carefully). Also won't work if you're in a noisy room...even the refrigerator interferes with it. I've built wheels without a tension measuring device in the past but wouldn't again with this so easily available.
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Old 04-17-19, 08:59 AM
  #38  
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Again,
Thanks to all for your input and helpful advice. I'll keep you posted.
Jon
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Old 04-17-19, 06:45 PM
  #39  
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From DT Swiss website: "The forging process allows the metal to be compressed into a denser package and this strengthens the metal by aligning the grain, giving rise to a part with improved strength characteristics."

DT forges their DB spokes, they do not draw them out. Perhaps they are incorrect in saying the process compresses the metal into a denser package?
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Old 04-18-19, 08:23 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
From DT Swiss website: "The forging process allows the metal to be compressed into a denser package and this strengthens the metal by aligning the grain, giving rise to a part with improved strength characteristics."

DT forges their DB spokes, they do not draw them out. Perhaps they are incorrect in saying the process compresses the metal into a denser package?
Yes, they are incorrect. When you forge metal, the metal doesn't get denser. It moves and the grain structure changes but it doesn't increase in density. The density is the number of atoms of molecules packed into a give volume. You can heat or cool the metal to change the density but that is only because the volume changes. The number of atoms remains the same. When DT (or anyone) forges something, they may compress it into a smaller volume but the number of atoms per a give volume remains the same. Any excess material is squished out the end of whatever they are forging with.
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