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Campagnolo questions triple to double?

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Campagnolo questions triple to double?

Old 05-17-19, 07:28 PM
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Campagnolo questions triple to double?

I want to change from an Athena 11 3x11 geartrain to 2x11. I have a 10 speed Record Carbon UltraTorque CT chainset and the Gen 3 Ergopowers designed for 11 speed triples, complete with funky shift pattern in the left hand.

Questions:
  1. I want to use the 10 speed CT Double with the existing 11 speed 11x32 cassette and the existing derailleur and right hand (Gen 3) Ergopower. So I want to know what variety of right hand Ergo power to get,
  2. Also need to know the correct CT front mech to make it all shift and dance nicely. I'm not worried about any electrics, I can adjust shifter cables just fine myself.
  3. Finally, I want to know if there will be any ill effects from using a 10 speed CT chainset when the rest of it is 11 speed.
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Old 05-18-19, 07:58 AM
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The crankset should be no problem. Campy made changes in 2015 so the ultrashift levers pull more cable than previously and the RD is setup to match that increased cable pull. The left shifter is also quite different, with only 3 clicks, instead of 6 or 7 and the FD is made to work best with the new 3-click shifter.

I've never used the lower level levers with the power-shift mechanism, so can't comment on that left shifter, but I would think that the triple FD and left shifter could also shift a double, it the FD low limit screw is set to limit the FD, to avoid the little ring.

Otherwise, you'll spend a lot more to move on up to newer shifters and derailleurs that match the latest amount of cable pull.

I've always bought Chorus to get the same function as Record or Super Record, at a much lower price.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 05-18-19 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 05-18-19, 08:01 AM
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cannot answer your will it work, guaranteed , question I did get a few Campag race triples 15 or so years ago,
all on square taper cartridge BB.. (& got Close out deals when they dumped the MTB sector, in the 80's)

Where I live now Zero Campagnolo stuff is carried, but when people break stuff they can get them replacement parts.

you in a big college city can do better, locally, ... Isn't there a Bike CoOp at least on campus?


as to your 3 questions only address one but its DIY..

I want to know if there will be any ill effects from using a 10 speed CT chainset when the rest of it is 11 speed.
others have posted the measured widths for 10 & 11 speed chains , perhaps you can search for their work ..
Probably not the differences are not that big..







..

Last edited by fietsbob; 05-18-19 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 05-18-19, 09:37 AM
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AFAIK Triple to double means a whole new crankset, now that the BB spindle tubes are part of your crankarms..


Back when they made the race triple they forged a different drive side crank arm for the double than the triple ,
So they shared the same BB cartridge size/width ..





....
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Old 05-19-19, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
cannot answer your will it work, guaranteed , question I did get a few Campag race triples 15 or so years ago,
all on square taper cartridge BB.. (& got Close out deals when they dumped the MTB sector, in the 80's)

Where I live now Zero Campagnolo stuff is carried, but when people break stuff they can get them replacement parts.

you in a big college city can do better, locally, ... Isn't there a Bike CoOp at least on campus?

as to your 3 questions only address one but its DIY..

others have posted the measured widths for 10 & 11 speed chains , perhaps you can search for their work ..
Probably not the differences are not that big..
For the DIY, you're correct - I went out and found an article by Lennard Zinn pdq, and he had a good arguement why the 10s crankset should work just fine with the 11s et cetera. I could only see it making a difference in the 11s rear mech/wheel/cassette, and what I want to do has no relationship to the back of the bike 'cep perhaps for chain wrap capacity. So I can swap in the Campy Carbon Compact Ultratorque, should be no problem.

Front mech should not be a problem, now that I see 11 v. 10 is not a big deal in the front - I'll just go through my Derailleur Closet and find one.

So the only significant issue is the shifter action in the left hand.
  • the existing one is an Athena. I don't know if it was high or low end, but it was seemingly the last attempt of Campy to accommodate the Triple world and make it hard to screw up triple-shifting. I feel they were dead wrong, but I'm only a customer. Seems to have been dropped, so maybe they agree with me. Any case, its shifting pattern is unacceptable to me as the one who has to tune and retune wife's bike. So that's out.
  • OS has always seemed attractive, one click on a well-tuned left lever and you're in "higher" or "lower."
  • By far the best is what used to be the standard, where the left handle had maybe 10 finely spaced internal clicks - just click until it shifts. I don't know what this system is called. I have a 2005 set of carbon Record levers that function perfectly but they are not leaving the bars of my Mondonico ELOS. I also have a much older set of Gen 2 metal shifters (must have been early Gen 2 10 speed), which are not leaving the bars of my other Mondonico. Also, my early '90s Mirage 8 speed set up has this action, with Gen 2 levers. By far the best working set in the house!
What I want, then, is a Gen 3 left hand shifter that have a set of "several" evenly spaced clicks.

Anybody know of one?
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Old 05-19-19, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
AFAIK Triple to double means a whole new crankset, now that the BB spindle tubes are part of your crankarms..


Back when they made the race triple they forged a different drive side crank arm for the double than the triple ,
So they shared the same BB cartridge size/width ..





....
As I thought I said, fiets, I will be using a carbon compact (CT = "compact" in Campagnolo's version of mathematics) to replace the Athena triple cranks. So no more worry beads about triple cranks with double rings or any of that clunky, ungainly, high-Q, duck-footed talk, please!! I hate it and Mrs. Road Fan hates it now that she sees the Truth of Low Q. And it's her bike.

For example, her older Terry had TA Alize triple, which stuck out so far she bruised her ankle bones. Then I put on a nice 8sp Racing T, which she likes, but now she saw I have a shiny dull silver (that early 2000's Campy finish) square-taper Record Triple, and she wants it! It will have low Q and low profile arms with no ankle bruising! At least that bike already has a good pair of shifters!

I've created a gourmand!
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Old 05-19-19, 10:44 AM
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You need a 2008-2014 left ultrashift lever. In 2008 it was 10 speed ultrashift. After that, it was 11 speed. I have 2008 Centaur levers with carbon brake levers that are identical to Record, except of the plastic finger shift lever, instead of carbon. The right lever was converted to 11 speed with parts from a wreck damaged 11 speed lever.

The right lever needs to match the RD, unless you want to use the conversion trick that I came up with. If you grind down the threads of the cable clamp bolt, to the root of the threads, where the cable contacts the bolt it will increase the RD travel, so an older 10 speed RD will work with the older version of 11 speed levers, but it won't wrap a 32T cog. The same trick works to make the latest 11 speed RD work with the older 11 speed levers. I've had both of these setups on one of my bikes. I needed to use a newer Potenza RD to wrap a 32T sprocket, but with the mod, it works with the older 11 speed ultrashift levers.

https://planetcyclery.com/components...lever-shifters

The other option is 2015+ levers, with 2015+ RD and a 2015+ FD.

You may be able to find used levers on E-bay, but you never know how used they are.
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Old 05-19-19, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
For the DIY, you're correct - I went out and found an article by Lennard Zinn pdq, and he had a good arguement why the 10s crankset should work just fine with the 11s et cetera. I could only see it making a difference in the 11s rear mech/wheel/cassette, and what I want to do has no relationship to the back of the bike 'cep perhaps for chain wrap capacity. So I can swap in the Campy Carbon Compact Ultratorque, should be no problem.


Front mech should not be a problem, now that I see 11 v. 10 is not a big deal in the front - I'll just go through my Derailleur Closet and find one.


So the only significant issue is the shifter action in the left hand.


  • the existing one is an Athena. I don't know if it was high or low end, but it was seemingly the last attempt of Campy to accommodate the Triple world and make it hard to screw up triple-shifting. I feel they were dead wrong, but I'm only a customer. Seems to have been dropped, so maybe they agree with me. Any case, its shifting pattern is unacceptable to me as the one who has to tune and retune wife's bike. So that's out.
  • OS has always seemed attractive, one click on a well-tuned left lever and you're in "higher" or "lower."
  • By far the best is what used to be the standard, where the left handle had maybe 10 finely spaced internal clicks - just click until it shifts. I don't know what this system is called. I have a 2005 set of carbon Record levers that function perfectly but they are not leaving the bars of my Mondonico ELOS. I also have a much older set of Gen 2 metal shifters (must have been early Gen 2 10 speed), which are not leaving the bars of my other Mondonico. Also, my early '90s Mirage 8 speed set up has this action, with Gen 2 levers. By far the best working set in the house!

What I want, then, is a Gen 3 left hand shifter that have a set of "several" evenly spaced clicks.


Anybody know of one?

It all depends on what you mean by making it work and how well you expect it to work.

It also depends on how good a mechanic you are and whether you are willing and equipped to do things carefully and by the book, or prefer a less methodical and careful approach.

If you were constantly tuning your wife's triple system, that also tells me that you didn't have that assembled quite correctly (we have 3 demo bikes here, all running 3 x 11 Athena, in frequent and often unschooled use, never need touching apart from annual cable changes ...)


There hasn't been, since the advent of QS in 2007, a LH shifter that was designed to have a "never mind the cable tension, just keep clicking til something good happens" set up. The intention since 2007 has always been, on a double system, that one full sweep of the finger lever (lever 2) will take the FD from as far left as it ever needs to be, to as far right as it ever needs to be. On a triple system it should be one sweep from small ring to middle, one sweep from middle to big. In 10 and 11s systems, no trim should be needed on the big ring on either a double or a triple system, to reach all the sprockets on the cassette.

For that to happen, the other preconditions are a correctly matched lever, FD, crankset and chain - since cable recovery is set by the lever, the movement per unit of cable recovery is set by the FD and the distance that the FD is required to move is set by the chainring spacing and the physical width of the chain. The smoothness and speed of the shift, the amount of force that you need to apply to the upshift lever and the applied torque at which shifting will occur, is set by the match between the chain and the chainrings.

All current LH shifters have 7 positions for the cable bushing but the clutches inside will only reliably "hold" the first three clicks, as the other three are not intended to be used. If you look at the way the clutch plates are machined, you'll see that the depressions that accept the ballbearing that sets the outer 3 index points are significantly shallower. There are some ways around this but all place a lot more strain on lever 2 (they are rely on increasing the pressure between the clutch plates and therefore the force needed to rotate the lever internal) so unless you also want to go to the trouble of changing the composite lever 2s out for alloy ones - I'd avoid.

So - if you are content that the front shift will be slower and less accurate than it should (could) be and don't mind a lot of fettling to get a less than ideal result, you could pair a 10s CT crankset with an 11s chain. The best match would be with 2015 or later front mech and levers, with matching rear derailleur. The chainring spacing on 11s was changed in 2015 and again in 2017 on the HO type cranksets and it's now quite close to 10s spacing, so the absolute positions of the chainrings are similar - however, the profiling on the back of the 10s compact big ring is very different to that on HO 11s rings - so you may see problems with the chain dropping between the rings and "riding" the tops of the teeth on the inside ring. If you try and nudge the start point of the FD over too far to the left, to try and persuade the chain not to do this, you may cause the chain to miss the inner chainring completely on some shifts.

A lot of how well this will all work also depends on the cassette and frame geo - with a compact chainset, I am assuming you will be wanting to run 50 x 34 with a wide cassette - 12-29 or similar. The wider the chainring tooth difference, the less liberties you can take anyway and add to that a wide cassette, the FD is having to work quite hard to control the chain as you derail ... if the frame geo is pretty standard, say a 70mm drop from wheel centres to BB centre, a 410mm chainstay length and a seat angle in the 73-74 deg range, you stand a better chance of getting it all to work what I'd call "tolerably" but if the frame is very small (and therefore in most cases has a steep seat angle), or if you have a short back end, or the BB drop is excessive or quite small, then the relationship of the FD to the crankset can cause you issues.

Since 11s is on the way out in Campag world, I'd look for a recent Chorus 11s system complete that'll do exactly what you want, reliably, predictably and better than any frankensystem ever will, will be a piece of cake to set up and will stay set up without the need for frequent re-tuning as wear and tear takes you even further away from an ideal set up. If you wanted to make it more economic, you could use a Potenza HO crankset.

Last edited by gfk_velo; 05-19-19 at 07:38 PM.
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