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-   -   Installing Screw In Frame. Options Other Than Rivnuts? (https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/1173382-installing-screw-frame-options-other-than-rivnuts.html)

3speed 05-18-19 10:06 PM

Installing Screw In Frame. Options Other Than Rivnuts?
 
I'm trying to convert a bike into an e-bike. The battery mount has three holes to mount it to the frame. There are two regular water bottle mount holes, and one hole at the other end about 6" away. Is there an option to install a screw there other than a rivnut? I'd Really rather not have to buy the rivet tool and a kit just for one hole.

Bike tinker man 05-18-19 11:07 PM

You've given no idea on the actual size or weight of the battery pack these tend to be heavy, & down tubes, or set tubes where the water bottle holes are, the tubing is normally round, so no mechanical support other than the screw holes, & we all know the weight of a water bottle with liquid, so going over bumps, vibration could be stress here its not designed for ? Rather than making holes in any tubing, try initially to use strong cable ties instead making extra holes, see then what you think.

krecik 05-19-19 01:47 AM

Couldn't you mount the battery with 2 screws and zip tie the battery to the frame for extra strength?

All the ways I'm coming up with are quite pricey. Doing a professional braze on is one of them.

Sorry, Kret :(

3speed 05-19-19 01:57 AM

I didn't give the size or weight of the battery pack because I didn't realize it would affect much, but you may well be right that the hole tapping/threading/whatever method might be different depending on the weight. The battery pack weighs right about 10lbs. The weight would be distributed between three holes over a distance of ~28cm/11in.
Here is a link to the battery. http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-1e-rg6c

Using all zip ties is no good. A thief would have it off in all of 1/2 second. I would have to cut and replace the zip ties every time I wanted to remove the battery and charge it. It would just look ugly and janky.

Using a zip tie at the one end does solve most of those problems, but not quite. If nothing else, I'd still go through ~30 zip ties per month. I'd feel ****ty putting that much plastic in the land fill.

krecik 05-19-19 02:28 AM

Why cut them off, just take the bike in house and charge it there. Or does the battery have to be physically mounted to the charger?

krecik 05-19-19 02:35 AM

If it has to be removable, can't you just use a big velcro strap?

Trakhak 05-19-19 03:52 AM

Check bike shops near you for one that can install the rivnut for you and get a price quote. If less than the price of the tool, have the shop do the job.

dedhed 05-19-19 05:51 AM

Your link says the battery weighs "about a kg" which is 2.2 lbs. Any shop in Madison should be able to install a riv nut, for sure Yellow Jersey. .

3speed 05-19-19 06:19 AM

The battery doesn't have to be mounted to the charger, but the general safest recommended option for charging large lithium batteries is to not charge them in your house, and to not charge them on the bike, connected to the electrical system. 99.99% of the time they're fine, but the .01% that the charger/battery management system doesn't cut the voltage when the batteries are charged, they can go into thermal overload, burst into flames, and burn your house to the ground. That's why all of the news stories about hover boards catching fire and burning people's houses down when they became really popular. I do charge my battery inside, but charge it near the door in a large ceramic pot so I can put it outside if something goes wrong. Chances are nothing will ever happen, but it's not a big deal to be safe with them, so I try to.

In any case, for various reasons, including charging safety, ease of charging, the ability to swap batteries, ease of creating a waterproof cover for the battery, etc, etc, I'm going to install the battery using the three holes.

Originally Posted by dedhed (Post 20936787)
Your link says the battery weighs "about a kg" which is 2.2 lbs. Any shop in Madison should be able to install a riv nut, for sure Yellow Jersey. .

Well, it says "About kg." I believe that is a typing error. Perhaps they have a blank form that they fill in for each battery or something, and didn't enter the weight. It most certainly weighs more than 2lbs. It weighs ~10lbs. And Yellow Jersey doesn't exist anymore. For reasons I won't go into, they would be my last choice, and I'm not surprised they had to close the shop... They existed because they had the perfect location and they were there for a long time. Then more options became available.
If in the Madison area, I'd highly recommend Revolution cycles. Otherwise Budget Bicycles service shop has always been good when I've gone there. I haven't gone to their other locations.

dedhed 05-19-19 06:27 AM


Originally Posted by 3speed (Post 20936812)
Yellow Jersey doesn't exist anymore.

They're still around just not in Madison per se. And Yes, they are a bit "eccentric" and not everyone's cup of tea.

https://yellowjersey.org/

ChinookTx 05-19-19 07:23 AM


Originally Posted by dedhed (Post 20936818)
They're still around just not in Madison per se. And Yes, they are a bit "eccentric" and not everyone's cup of tea.

https://yellowjersey.org/

I think that website was designed before the internet was invented... Ugh! ;-)

HerrKaLeun 05-19-19 07:30 AM

Unless the battery or charger are no name knock offs the fear of fire is overblown. A good battery of a tier 1 company is not more dangerous than other electrical devices.

I have an 80 V battery lawnmower and have no issue in my wooden garage. Same for powertools or my flashlights. Electric cars are parked in garages too. It is unreasonable to think all that stuff should be charged outside.

fietsbob 05-19-19 08:34 AM

radiator hose clamp bands?

3speed 05-19-19 02:17 PM


Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun (Post 20936882)
Unless the battery or charger are no name knock offs the fear of fire is overblown.... It is unreasonable to think all that stuff should be charged outside.

I agree. Like I said, I charge mine inside. But the safe charging thing is an easy step to take, so I figure I may as well.

mtb_addict 05-19-19 06:50 PM

i was going to do riv nut but i stop myself.<br /><br />seeing you have to drill a fairly big hole into the most stressed section of frame. it is scary what might go wrong in wirst case scenario.<br /><br />brazedon is different. it is restrengthen the hole area by brazing.<br /><br />rivnut does nothing if that.

mtb_addict 05-19-19 06:55 PM


Originally Posted by fietsbob (Post 20936945)
radiator hose clamp bands?

those have sharp edges...becareful.

wsteve464 05-19-19 07:52 PM

You don't need to buy the rivnut tool. It can be compressed using a bolt and nut, Thread the nut up the bolt, thread the bolt well into the rivnut and tighten the nut against the rivnut while holding the bolt from turning.

Geekage 05-19-19 08:08 PM

There are a few options on this page. The King Universal Support Bolts look like a good bet, or use hose clamps on the Bar Yak or WolfTooth adapters.

3speed 05-20-19 05:11 AM

Just thought I'd update for anyone who may be looking or searching in the future. I had previously called Harbor Freight to see if they had rivnuts or rivet nuts. They said they didn't carry them. I poked around on the site today and found "threaded rivet inserts"(says rivnuts on the instructions/back of the package) and installation tool. The package with ~8 of four different size rivnuts and the tool was under $20.

Lemond1985 05-20-19 05:45 AM

FWIW, I used 4 rivnuts a couple years ago for water bottle mounts on my 531 Reynolds Raleigh Competition. At the time, I could not locate any decent quality clamps.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...20778062b9.jpg


No problems so far, drill bits took ten minutes or more for various drill bits to penetrate each hole that really tough steel. That stuff is STRONG.

I epoxied the rivnuts in, so the bike's Reynolds tubing has some support and reinforcement on the edges of the drilled holes. Plus each hole itself is occupied by a water bottle screw, filling any void in the metal. I would be highly surprised if any of these holes form cracks, but stranger things have happened. I'm not sure I would go this route again, and if i did, I would take more care in locating the holes,. Unfortunately, the steel tubes make it difficult or impossible fit a to drill in certain spots, making the project a rather unpleasant PITA.

Retro Grouch 05-20-19 06:43 AM


Originally Posted by 3speed (Post 20938160)
Just thought I'd update for anyone who may be looking or searching in the future. I had previously called Harbor Freight to see if they had rivnuts or rivet nuts. They said they didn't carry them. I poked around on the site today and found "threaded rivet inserts"(says rivnuts on the instructions/back of the package) and installation tool. The package with ~8 of four different size rivnuts and the tool was under $20.

Is one of the sizes M5?

Retro Grouch 05-20-19 06:47 AM

This is a question that comes up periodically. If you are working on a bike made with a water pipe frame, you might be able to drill and tap the frame tube. For any butted tubing frame bike, the frame tube walls are so thin that isn't going to work. You'll need the reinforcing the rivnut provides.

wsteve464 05-20-19 07:10 AM


Originally Posted by Lemond1985 (Post 20938172)
FWIW, I used 4 rivnuts a couple years ago for water bottle mounts on my 531 Reynolds Raleigh Competition. At the time, I could not locate any decent quality clamps.

Unfortunately, the steel tubes make it difficult or impossible fit a to drill in certain spots, making the project a rather unpleasant PITA.

I drill a pilot hole with a 1/8th bit as close to center as i can then I enlarge the hole with a Dremel and a pionted carbide bit. That way you can adjust the hole position if the pilot hole is not centered.

If you can't find a M5 rivnut locally check E-bay

Lemond1985 05-20-19 07:16 AM

Yeah, if I ever do this again, that would be the ideal approach. Instead, I burned up 3-4 drill bits, cursed up a storm, wasn't able to locate the holes where I wanted them, and scratched up my paint in several places when the drill bit slipped. :(

WizardOfBoz 05-20-19 08:01 AM

The classic way to drill a hole like this is to use a machinist scribe to scratch a small t where you want the hole. Optionally, you use little pieces of metal called seat rule clamps on your metal machinist's rule to ensure that your "t" is centered on the tube. Then you'd use a prick punch (yes, that's what its called) with a small ball pein hammer to put a little dent into the tube. Then if the small dent was exactly where you wanted it you'd use a center punch and hammer to make the divot larger. This divot would guide a 1/16" or 3/32 (1 mm) guide drill. At which point you could use the appropriate sized drill for an M5 rivnut (which is usually a 7mm +0.1/-0.0 hole - for which you might use a slightly smaller drill because hand drills yield holes larger than nominal). Steel rivnut for steel frame, aluminum or stainless steel rivnut for aluminum frame.

There's a good discussion relevant to the OP's question here. There's a suggestion to use rubber molding compound to make a shock-absorbing gasket. Anyway, some ideas.

Also, there's many different installation tools, some industrial ones ranging into the thousands of dollars. A simple, fairly cheap tool is listed here. I have no experience with this but it looked pretty nice - you have the mechanical advantage of the inclined plane coupled with the MA of the screw. Anyone used this tool?


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