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Source for 27" sew-up/tubular rims

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Source for 27" sew-up/tubular rims

Old 06-29-19, 01:48 PM
  #1  
WilliamK1974
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Source for new sew-up/tubular rims

In another thread, I posted about a Peugeot U08 I just purchased. It's in sort of ok shape, and I'm trying to turn it into an occasional rider.

At present, it appears to have its original Normandy hubs, but instead of the Nervex (I think) wheels that it would have originally had from new, someone has installed a set of Japanese-made chrome/steel 27" rims.

In the interest of lightening the bike's weight and improving its ride, it was suggested that I consider using tubular rims and wheels. I like this idea in part because I have a set of them on my vintage TdF, and they're great riders. I think they may even be original to that bike, so they have some good durability as well.

Trouble is, I'm not sure how to go about sourcing a set of rims like that. I would like to reuse the Normandy hubs. If worse comes to worse, I might could have them built at the LBS, but they seem to be more interested in working on more modern equipment, so something like that could get expensive quickly. The C&V shop near me is still in its building, but hasn't been open in three or four years.

I'm not afraid to try and build my own, but that would depend on having a dependable source for the rims and spokes. I have a spoke wrench, truing stand, and dish stick now, and kind of want to try them out.

Edit: Those who have replied pointed out that all tubular rims are 700c, so that may be my only choice if I go that route. If I go with clinchers, I would like to stay 27" if possible, and keep the original hubs.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you,
-William

Last edited by WilliamK1974; 06-29-19 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Originally had the wrong size in the posting.
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Old 06-29-19, 02:01 PM
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Terminology may be Off..

27" 630 BSD in wire bead on tires can go on extruded aluminum rims ...
bought as built up wheels thru most bike shops.. machine built by their distributors at whole sale prices..

(better than all parts at retail )

but tubular, for glued on tires rims are a whole different story...










...

Last edited by fietsbob; 06-29-19 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 06-29-19, 02:04 PM
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Tubular wheels are 700c. Why do you want to deal with tubulars on a bike like a UO 8? That is a fine utility bike and clinchers are really a better choice.

There is no real reason to stay with 27 inch with a UO8. The stock mafac brakes will drop down to 700c wheels (the difference is small around 4 mm). The UO 8 would have come stock with steel rims and 120 mm spacing in the rear. It is made of hi tensile steel and easy to spread. You should do yourself a favor and get a good set of 126 mm alloy wheels like these from velomine:

Sun CR18 Road Bike Sealed Bearing 700c Wheelset 126mm Rear [072774744381] - $125.00 Velomine.com : Worldwide Bicycle Shop, fixed gear track bike wheelsets campagnolo super record vintage bike

You can go with 27 inch if you like:

Sun CR18 27 5,6,7 Speed Freewheel hubs Road Bike Wheelset [72274726665] - $139.00 Velomine.com : Worldwide Bicycle Shop, fixed gear track bike wheelsets campagnolo super record vintage bike

Panaracer, Schwalbe, Continental, etc. still make very decent 27 inch tires.

If you want to stick with 120 mm rear wheel, you will have to either build your own wheel or have a shop do it.
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Old 06-29-19, 02:09 PM
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NB the radius difference is only 4 mm 630/2 - 622/2.. (8/2=4)


700C wire bead is popular because it is so much like sew up tire wheel rims ..

that a race bike can use either.. ...





...

Last edited by fietsbob; 06-30-19 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 06-29-19, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
If you want to stick with 120 mm rear wheel, you will have to either build your own wheel or have a shop do it.
I don't mind trying to build my own wheel, but I'm not sure exactly how to get started with something like that. Sourcing the rims, spokes etc.
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Old 06-29-19, 02:45 PM
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My 1972 UO8 came new with Rigida Steel rims and Michelin gumwall 27 x 1 1/4 tires. The Rigida rims were not that great and I, like many others back then, replaced them with aluminum (either 27" or 700c, I don't remember). The CR18 rims mentioned by @bikemig would be a good match for your bike. They are a bargain at the price and have a vintage look. Build them 4-cross on your Normandy hubs (high flange, right?) and you'll be pleased. Tubular rims would look out of place on a UO8 (my opinion).
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Old 06-29-19, 02:56 PM
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Maybe something like this if I want to use the original hubs:
https://www.harriscyclery.net/produc...e-rim-1745.htm

Which spokes to use with these?
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Old 06-29-19, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
your Normandy hubs (high flange, right?)
Would you mind explaining how to tell whether or not mine are high flange, please?
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Old 06-29-19, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamK1974 View Post
Would you mind explaining how to tell whether or not mine are high flange, please?
Have you overhauled your hubs? if the cones or cups are bad, you are wasting your time building new wheels around the old hubs. Also is your hub french threaded? If it is, you are also wasting your time building new wheels around those hubs.

You should seriously consider buying built up 700c 126 mm wheels and spreading the rear triangle. I did that to my Peugeot UE 8 which is basically just like your UO 8 but the UE 8 comes with fenders, rack, and a generator.

Heck the steel is so mild on those old Pugs, that the wheel just almost slid in without too much effort on my UE 8.

That is a great bike and it will ride even better with a good set of alloy wheels.
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Old 06-29-19, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Have you overhauled your hubs? if the cones or cups are bad, you are wasting your time building new wheels around the old hubs. Also is your hub french threaded? If it is, you are also wasting your time building new wheels around those hubs.

You should seriously consider buying built up 700c 126 mm wheels and spreading the rear triangle. I did that to my Peugeot UE 8 which is basically just like your UO 8 but the UE 8 comes with fenders, rack, and a generator.

Heck the steel is so mild on those old Pugs, that the wheel just almost slid in without too much effort on my UE 8.

That is a great bike and it will ride even better with a good set of alloy wheels.
In answer to your question, no, I haven't overhauled the hubs. I haven't yet done any work on the bike, just trying to plan ahead a bit for when I have some time here in a couple of weeks.

What's wrong with French threading, and what if I don't want to spread the frame on the bike?
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Old 06-29-19, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamK1974 View Post
In answer to your question, no, I haven't overhauled the hubs. I haven't yet done any work on the bike, just trying to plan ahead a bit for when I have some time here in a couple of weeks.

What's wrong with French threading, and what if I don't want to spread the frame on the bike?
French stuff is pretty easy to find but not freewheels. But if you want to build up a hubset threaded for french hubs, go for it.

If you don't want to spread your frame, that's cool.

I was trying to make your life easier (which I think is why you asked for some advice) but if you know what you are doing, go for it. It's your bike.

Last edited by bikemig; 06-29-19 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 06-29-19, 03:55 PM
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If what @bikemig says is correct about the Mafac calipers having enough room to drop the pads a little lower so that brake pad placement is still OK with the 700c rims, then I would 2nd what he said about skipping the tubulars and just building up a nice set of 700c clinchers. I would recommend that you seek out some of the contemporary 700c clincher rims from Velocity, DT Swiss, H+ Son, Pacenti or Mavic.





Me, I'm partial to the Velocity rims right now. My wheelbuilder LBS mechanic builds the most lovely handbuilt wheels with the Velocity A23. These are a little wider than the old stand by Mavic Open Pro, so they have increase interior volume so you can run wider tires of which there are a ton of great choices these days. If you want tubular-like tactile feedback from your tires, run latex inner-tubes. I've been gushing about how great their ride is since I switched to them last year.





Velocity also makes the "Quill" rim which is even wider than the A23 yet manages to not weigh as much as you might think. You could run these tubeless, with latex or butyl tubes and any kind of 700c tire from 25mm width to over 32 mm width. You could order them in the same drilling as your Normandy hubs and re-use the exact same hubs. If that is the case you have the expense for the rims, new spokes and nipples and the labor.





Or you could do as others have said and spread the rear triangle to 126 mm and give yourself the capability to have full clearance for a 6 or 7 speed freewheel or cassette. I would suggest checking eBay for a suitable Shimano 7 speed cassette hub in a 126mm width. Shimano made a few hubs in the late 80's that were 126 mm locknut to locknut dimension that used Uniglide cassettes (with the threaded outer lockring cog) or 7 speed Hyperglide (HG) cassettes which have the advantage of having more advanced shifting ramps and also being more available and thus more affordable.





The Shimano 105 (#1055?) I believe was the 7 speed variant hub and on a good day on eBay you can get a clean used one or even a new one for like $25-50 on any given week. Just check back in a week if you can't find any and eventually they pop up. Personally I like the Dura Ace 7400 series. Their 7 speed variant of Dura Ace was Uniglide only but there are work arounds if you cannot track down a Dura Ace 7400 seven speed cassette. Matching polished silver hub with polished silver rim is my favorite, although you could spec other colors/finishes for your rims or hubs as you desire.





Just be aware too that if you find a different high quality vintage hub such as an older Deore XT or LX, these can also be adapted for 6/7 speed service quite easily by purchasing a 137mm replacement axle through Wheels Manufacturing for ~$20. This is a super easy conversion. When you have the wheel built with the proper axle, the wheel builder will dish the wheel to center properly in your frame and slide right in with the correct spacers that it calls for on the non-drive and drive sides.
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Old 06-29-19, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamK1974 View Post
I don't mind trying to build my own wheel, but I'm not sure exactly how to get started with something like that. Sourcing the rims, spokes etc.
Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
If what @bikemig says is correct about the Mafac calipers having enough room to drop the pads a little lower so that brake pad placement is still OK with the 700c rims, then I would 2nd what he said about skipping the tubulars and just building up a nice set of 700c clinchers. I would recommend that you seek out some of the contemporary 700c clincher rims from Velocity, DT Swiss, H+ Son, Pacenti or Mavic.


snip . . .
I don't want to lead the OP astray so I'm quoting you as well as the OP.

I have converted UO 8s before to 700c and it's no big deal but I may have used a weinmann center pull to do this. My current Peugeot UE 8 is running mafacs and 126 mm 27 inch wheels. I suspect that I could get this to work with 700c but I'm not going to try it out. So to be safe, the OP can go with 27 inch rims. The 27 inch Sun CR 18s are very good and there are plenty of decent new 27 inch tires available.

Still if I were building new wheels, I'd go for 700c over 27 inch because of tire availability.
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Old 06-29-19, 05:38 PM
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I guess I was looking at this more from a C&V standpoint, and the replies are more about enhancements than originality.

Now that I think about it, maybe that's the best thing for this bike since I already have the TdF to keep more or less original. That said, it uses a shimano FD and a Simplex RD that's more durable than the all-plastic Prestige model that came on it.

It's the frame-spreading thing that's a little bothersome. Something about it seems more like tempting fate.
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Old 06-29-19, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamK1974 View Post
Would you mind explaining how to tell whether or not mine are high flange, please?
These are high flange:


These are low flange:

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Old 06-29-19, 09:09 PM
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So, something like this Dura-Ace 7400 rear hub:
https://ebay.us/dWZ8bH


And this freewheel:
https://ebay.us/qS0mSo


would allow me to up the speed count to 14 and have a nice 27" alloy rear wheel built, or I could build it myself?

And grab this for the front wheel:
https://ebay.us/Rxg3Td


Or maybe this set:
https://ebay.us/dPxUxn


Either way, more than I spent for the bike itself...

Last edited by WilliamK1974; 06-29-19 at 09:13 PM. Reason: Additional text
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Old 06-29-19, 09:17 PM
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I rode my UO-8 for 8 years with tubulars. Easy swap. The original Mafac Racer brakes can do the additional reach easily. Made for a fun ride plus allowed me to use cyclocrorss tires for winter commuting, (I didn't own a car in those days and lived in Boston and Ann Arbor.)

Ben
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Old 06-29-19, 09:19 PM
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Just buy a vintage tubular wheelset from Craigslist- they are easy to find.
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Old 06-29-19, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamK1974 View Post
So, something like this Dura-Ace 7400 rear hub:
https://ebay.us/dWZ8bH


And this freewheel:
https://ebay.us/qS0mSo


would allow me to up the speed count to 14 and have a nice 27" alloy rear wheel built, or I could build it myself?

And grab this for the front wheel:
https://ebay.us/Rxg3Td


Or maybe this set:
https://ebay.us/dPxUxn


Either way, more than I spent for the bike itself...
Yes! Those look like excellent choices. The ratios on the freewheel are more in the “spirited riding” realm if paired with 53/39 cranks. That’s great if your area is flat or if you are using a compact or triple crank. The idea of running the slightly smaller outer diameter 700c wheels (in comparison to 27”) opens up gravel tire widths - say 33mm Challenge Paris Roubaix tires if they will clear the fork blades and rear triangle stays. To run the fatter tires that are in vogue, a wider rim such as the HED Belgium + or the Velocity Quill that I previously mentioned would be bold choices that could build up into wicked versatile modern wheels.

The Dura Ace 7 speed freewheel is very precise. The pawls (clicks) are fine and positive. You can’t go wrong with it. Other freewheels are out there that can cover a wider ratio range such as the SunTour Winner or Winner Pro. Are you planning on running indexed shift levers on your Peugot? There are lots of options for indexed or friction shifting on a 7 speed bike. I like the Shimano 105SC downtube levers for 7 speed (S.I.S.) Shimano Index System indexing. In my application I have the 105SC levers mounted on Gevenalle Audax cyclocross brake lever/shifter pods. The allows for 7 speed index shifting for the rear 7 cogs. For the front shifter the 105SC lever is run in friction mode to shift an Ultegra 6503 triple cranks with 53/42/30 chainrings giving a useful range over my rear 12-25 7-speed Dura Ace 7400 Uniglide cassette.

Last edited by masi61; 06-29-19 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 06-30-19, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamK1974 View Post
I don't mind trying to build my own wheel, but I'm not sure exactly how to get started with something like that. Sourcing the rims, spokes etc.
learning wheel building is fun and a pain both. But it would be less expensive to buy the wheels listed in a previous post from velomine than to buy all the parts

also C&V section for sale is a good source
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Old 06-30-19, 05:16 AM
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Did they really make an export version of this bike, or just slap 27" wheels on the normally 700c bike for U.S. consumption? My guess is many of them are 700c, and that opens up a lot of choices of tires that you will not have with 27" The original rims on these were horrible, even with the patterns on the braking surface. I don't think I would rebuild a normandy hub into a wheel, but I value practicality over originality.
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Old 06-30-19, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Yes! Those look like excellent choices. The ratios on the freewheel are more in the “spirited riding” realm if paired with 53/39 cranks. That’s great if your area is flat or if you are using a compact or triple crank. The idea of running the slightly smaller outer diameter 700c wheels (in comparison to 27”) opens up gravel tire widths - say 33mm Challenge Paris Roubaix tires if they will clear the fork blades and rear triangle stays. To run the fatter tires that are in vogue, a wider rim such as the HED Belgium + or the Velocity Quill that I previously mentioned would be bold choices that could build up into wicked versatile modern wheels.

The Dura Ace 7 speed freewheel is very precise. The pawls (clicks) are fine and positive. You can’t go wrong with it. Other freewheels are out there that can cover a wider ratio range such as the SunTour Winner or Winner Pro. Are you planning on running indexed shift levers on your Peugot? There are lots of options for indexed or friction shifting on a 7 speed bike. I like the Shimano 105SC downtube levers for 7 speed (S.I.S.) Shimano Index System indexing. In my application I have the 105SC levers mounted on Gevenalle Audax cyclocross brake lever/shifter pods. The allows for 7 speed index shifting for the rear 7 cogs. For the front shifter the 105SC lever is run in friction mode to shift an Ultegra 6503 triple cranks with 53/42/30 chainrings giving a useful range over my rear 12-25 7-speed Dura Ace 7400 Uniglide cassette.
Ok... Gear ratios are one of those things that I've not yet fully grasped. In fact, there's something about them that I find frustrating. My area is hilly enough to where a bike made for spirited riding on flat surfaces would be somewhat impractical, and I've found that alot of the bike boom-era 10-spds seem to have a gearset for that rather than something that can tackle some hills.

Was the freewheel you mentioned as being good for riding on flat ground the one that was being sold by itself and not part of a set?

I bought a used Giant Expedition bike because it offered a road bike frame with flat handlebars and MTB-like gearing. It uses a tire that's fatter than the typical road tire but not as fat as the typical MTB tire, so it doesn't make too much extra road-riding friction to overcome, and can still do a bit of light duty off road, such as a gravel pathway. While I like it, there isn't a huge sentimental attachment, so I don't mind if it gets a little beat-up, and would be willing to sell it if it were no longer needed. I have a Haro Flightline Sport MTB with rims that are capable of handling some smooth road tires. But I wasn't fond of MTB geometry for road riding, and was glad to find the Giant.

Now, I'm not saying that the Peugeot needs to go all the way in that direction. But the notion of being able to have a wider gear selection while only having to spread the rear part of the frame a short amount has alot of appeal. The Pug has its original crankset, but it's missing one of the bolts. So, putting something else on the bike isn't out of the question I guess, but then you have French threading to worry about. I haven't decided whether or not to go with index shifting.

As an aside, this makes me wonder what I could do to improve the usability of the bike shop Schwinn World that I've had since my fifteenth birthday. It might be easier to fix up than the Pug, but we can deal with it later...

Thank you,
-William
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Old 06-30-19, 09:42 AM
  #23  
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The freewheel was the second eBay link, not part of a set. Have you talked to anyone about cold setting your frame from 120 to 126mm spacing? If this gives you pause I suppose you could go with some,classic, older 120mm space rear 5 speed (or ultra 6) spaced and be able to fit hat in your dropouts with no modification at all.

Can you you tell us a little more about the original cranks? What size chainrings are on there? You mention you’re open to running a different crankset - would you be thinking you’d like a compact double or triple crank? One of these could give you the lower gear range you need even if you ran with only a 13-23 freewheel or,cassette in the rear.
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Old 06-30-19, 11:04 AM
  #24  
WizardOfBoz
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So your bike has a 27 inch rim on it now. Nominal diameter is 630mm. If you go to a tubular or 700c your nominal diameter shrinks to 622mm. An 8mm dimetral difference means a 4mm radial difference. So if you change to tubular or 700c your brakes need to be adjustable so that the brake shoes hit the rim on the smaller wheel.

If you want to keep the Normandy hubs (which is fine if the bearings are good) you can find good 27 inch alloy rims. Sun Ringle makes the CR-18 in that size, which is fine. Weinmann makes a couple of 27 inch rims. The RM19 is probably what you want - this is for a 1-1/4 inch (32mm, which I seem to recall came standards on the U08s) but would likely work well with a a 1-1/8 (28.5mm) tire, which width is currently considered fashionable/optimal.

You asked whether you could make this a 12 speed. No problem, just make sure you get a 6 speed freewheel that fits your hub. If you want even more speeds, you need to get a new rear hub with the proper spacing and to bend the frame. Look up Sheldon Brown's writings on wheel spacing, here.

I'm currently rebuilding a Schwinn Superior of similar vintage. Hand-brazed frame of chrome-moly, with 27 inch wheels using Normandy high-flange hubs. I'm re-using the original Weinmann rims (not as good as modern, but they are "correct" for the bike). I will say this: by the time you buy spokes/rims/tires, etc. you are probably dollars ahead if you just find a used wheel. But some of us are in this for the climb, not the view.

Good luck.
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Old 06-30-19, 12:43 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by WilliamK1974 View Post
I don't mind trying to build my own wheel, but I'm not sure exactly how to get started with something like that. Sourcing the rims, spokes etc.
This is kind of a loaded and possibly naive statement. (Possibly not, too). Building a set of wheels requires some tools, and some native ability temperted by experience. Some type of truing stand (you can adapt the bike frame), a dishing gauge (you can cob one together with a few pieces of wood and a piece of all-thread) and some method of getting the tension correct and consistent between spokes. The consistency issue can be done by feel and audibly (the spokes should sound about the same when "plucked") and the absolute could be done by comparing how easily you can squeeze spokes together, compared with a wheel with known tension. Or you could buy a spoke tension meter. Questions:
1) Do you enjoy mechanical work like this?
2) Are you good at it? Do you have experience enough to be somewhat fearless about trying this?
3) Are you willing to spend some time reading a few articles and possibly a few books?
4) Are you clever enough to adapt stuff to use as a truing stand and wheel dishing tool?, or...
5) Are you willing to shell out the 150-500 bucks for truing stand, dishing tool, and tension meter?
The alternate approach would be to go to a full service bike shop, or contact folks here on BF that build wheels (I think forum member Dan Burkhart does that) and pay a couple/few hundred bucks or more for wheels. Or, go on the interweb and buy some prefab or used (ebay) wheels.

Just trying to fill in for you what "try" means here in the context of "willing to try". I'm giving this a go, and trying to build my own set of wheels, just for the experience and satisfaction of saying I built my wheels. So I am by no means discouraging you - I think building wheels will be a fun challenge. But its good to know the cost before you embark.

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 06-30-19 at 12:57 PM.
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