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Replacing & Tensioning Spokes on Tour

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Replacing & Tensioning Spokes on Tour

Old 07-05-19, 01:32 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz
I agree with ThermionicScott's suggestion of 2.0/1.8/2.0. I'm rebuilding by Superior with 2.0/1.65/2.0 for front and rear non-drive side, and 2.0/1.8/2.0 drive side. Using the 1.65 (14 gauge) mostly because that was the original size. But for a touring bike, with luggage, the 1.8 will be better.

Also, his point about how spokes support the bike was better than I could have explained it. Jobst Brandt did discuss this in his book.
14 ga. is 2.0mm. A 1.65mm is more like 16 ga.
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Old 07-05-19, 01:38 PM
  #52  
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Oops, I reversed it. 14 ga = ~2mm, 15ga = ~1.8mm, and 16ga =~1.65mm. Is that it?

Whatever the gauge, the spokes did mic out at 2mm and 1.65mm.

Thanks, Bill.

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Old 07-05-19, 01:40 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by BeeRich
Oh screw that. LOL. Is that in metric? There are no units.
The formula will work with any units you want, as long as you're consistent throughout. E.g. don't measure the rim radius in inches and the hub radius in millimeters and expect it to work. Pick one system and stick with it.

But if you're just replacing a single spoke, measure the broken spoke and buy one the same length.
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Old 07-05-19, 02:12 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
......But if you're just replacing a single spoke, measure the broken spoke and buy one the same length.
It appears the OP's spokes MIGHT be too short. A better pic of just the spoke end might show enough resolution to actually tell.
IF that's the case, add enough to reach the screwdriver slot of the nipple.
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Old 07-06-19, 02:38 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by BeeRich
That's what I was thinking. But since it's a 32 spoke set, I might just start fresh if I decide to go down this road. I hear you on the "adding new spoke length" in the current system, but I should turn this into a project. MEC currently sells 32-spoke configs as touring setups.
Harris cyclery and any honest seller is selling 36 spoked wheels for touring.
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Old 07-07-19, 01:20 PM
  #56  
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I'm in Toronto. Plenty for sale here.
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Old 07-07-19, 10:54 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by BeeRich
I'm in Toronto. Plenty for sale here.
Coming in late here (I've been on the other side of the planet chasing vicua and eclipses...) but I agree with the others: you need wheels with 36 spokes if you're going to be touring. Your existing wheels are inadequate.
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Old 07-08-19, 03:53 PM
  #58  
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Late to this debate, my thoughts:

Tensioning: Flex to get close, then for final adjustment, ring the spokes, but do so by plucking like a string, don't hammer on them with anything. Of course you have to balance the two needs of a) equalizing tension and b) having the rim run true. With disc brakes, perfect true is less essential.

Cyclecross vs. touring frame: Since your frame didn't break, doesn't matter for this discussion. Touring frames offer the advantage of longer wheelbase for heel clearance from the panniers, and a bit more stability due to that extra wheelbase. But these days there are racks that position the panniers well aft for heel clearance, I use one on my 20" wheel folder.

I agree with everything said about spoking. Note my moniker; I hate replacing wheels and such. I have broken a spoke or two over time, that doesn't bother me as much as rim failure, as the latter is much more expensive. I used to bike 55k each evening on a road race bike, both I and bike were light, but would wear out rims after 2-3 years, always radial cracks at a spoke hole. Then I got ***double-socketed*** rims; these have a double wall (like most good rims) but also a steel cup at each hole that ties the spoke to both inner and outer rim walls (usually it's just the inner), and spreads the loads radially. This reduces the local stress at least by half, and each 10% reduction roughly doubles the fatigue life, so 50% equals 2^^5 (32x) increase in fatigue life. Probably more due to spreading the loads radially as well. Hard to tell because those rims are 20 years old and still going strong. Use as many spokes as you can (based on hub and rim availability), high number of spoke crosses (3-cross or 4-cross) as this lengthens the spokes for more elasticity and reduces stress at the hub flange, and also the crossed laced spokes help maintain tension on the spoke that is at the bottom and being compressed, reducing fatigue cycle stresses; I HATE radially spoking. Yes, double socketed, high spoke count, high cross wheels are heavier. I'm not a racer. I want DURABLE. Signed, Duragrouch.

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Old 07-08-19, 04:10 PM
  #59  
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Ya never had any rear pannier issues. I have Tubus front and rear now, with rear a new solid stainless rack. Haven't used it yet. I should pack up the beast and head on over to the (Toronto) Island for a run.

Is there a pattern that you suggest? I know nothing about this, other than there's a science to it. Radial spoking is too hipster/Bohemian for me. Ya I'm past my racing days since my Mercier was stolen out of my car. Another story.

Cheers
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Old 07-08-19, 04:17 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by BeeRich
Ya never had any rear pannier issues. I have Tubus front and rear now, with rear a new solid stainless rack. Haven't used it yet. I should pack up the beast and head on over to the (Toronto) Island for a run.

Is there a pattern that you suggest? I know nothing about this, other than there's a science to it. Radial spoking is too hipster/Bohemian for me. Ya I'm past my racing days since my Mercier was stolen out of my car. Another story.

Cheers
Standard cross patterns are fine, nothing weird like "crow's foot" or anything like it. But, the max number of crosses is dictated by the number of rim holes and the hub flange size; sometimes a 4X just won't fit because a spoke would overlap the adjacent spoke head, which would be a no-no. 4X also increases the deviation from 90 degrees that the spoke enters the rim hole, also not good; It's a tradeoff.

Disc brakes do stress the spokes more, but the rim sidewalls don't get chewed up by dirty pads, and don't get heated up on long steep descents (a big deal on aluminum, it doesn't take a lot of heat to weaken it, and it expands, increasing spoke tension); It's a tradeoff.

Do you sense a trend?
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Old 07-09-19, 04:26 AM
  #61  
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Oh I'm sure there are trends. Just seeing what is optimal.
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Old 07-10-19, 09:12 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by BeeRich
Oh I'm sure there are trends. Just seeing what is optimal.
"Optimal" would be no broken spokes, particularly when you're out touring. On-the-road repairs are a giant pain.
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Old 07-10-19, 10:48 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wills
"Optimal" would be no broken spokes, particularly when you're out touring. On-the-road repairs are a giant pain.
How about giving the dude a straight answer.

For his application, on his bike, it's going to be 3x, 32 spoked wheel. For max reliability.

Pretty much 99.99% of the time.
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Old 07-11-19, 01:01 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by operator
How about giving the dude a straight answer.

For his application, on his bike, it's going to be 3x, 32 spoked wheel. For max reliability.

Pretty much 99.99% of the time.
36, even at 3x (if 4x is tricky for spokes overlapping adjacent spoke heads), is a bit safer bet - one spoke breaking leaves the wheel more "rideable" until it is fixed.
40 and more is even more "breakage proof", but finding replacement rims (and hubs) can be a lot trickier.

Having said all that, 32 3x is also quite tough and durable - plus it gives more optimal spoke angle at the hub, compared to 36 3x (but also more angle at the rim entry, which is usually not a problem with 28" rims, but just something to look out for and "fix" - like noted in the above shown picture from Brandt's book).
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Old 07-20-19, 01:09 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin
36, even at 3x (if 4x is tricky for spokes overlapping adjacent spoke heads), is a bit safer bet - one spoke breaking leaves the wheel more "rideable" until it is fixed.
40 and more is even more "breakage proof", but finding replacement rims (and hubs) can be a lot trickier.

Having said all that, 32 3x is also quite tough and durable - plus it gives more optimal spoke angle at the hub, compared to 36 3x (but also more angle at the rim entry, which is usually not a problem with 28" rims, but just something to look out for and "fix" - like noted in the above shown picture from Brandt's book).
Yes it's a safer bet, good ******g luck finding 36h rims and hubs. Does not make sense anymore to get those 4 extra spokes at the huge expense of rim and hub selection.
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Old 07-20-19, 01:57 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by operator
Yes it's a safer bet, good ******g luck finding 36h rims and hubs. Does not make sense anymore to get those 4 extra spokes at the huge expense of rim and hub selection.
Hear this a lot.

Where I live, as well as on the Net, I have no problems finding 36 h rims and hubs.

Both low and very solid mid-range stuff. Not super-light and super-expensive "racing" stuff. That is: for uses where durability is priority.
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Old 07-24-19, 03:16 PM
  #67  
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I've read up and down this thread several times and I still can't figure out why OP said it was a CX bike then denied saying it was a CX bike. The internet troll in me just can't let that go.

Originally Posted by BeeRich
I have a cyclocross bike that was repurposed by MEC (mec.ca) as a touring bike.
Anyhoo, the Cot they sell now is described as a 'Gravel grinder, single tracker, asphalt crusher, all-rounder' (from https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5059-557/Cote-Bicycle)

And 32 spokes could be fine for touring, but factory built wheels are usually not built very well... items like the spoke length and even spoke tension are not of top priority for the machines that do the assembly. The spokes lasted for 7 years, which is pretty good for a machine built wheel under heavy use. New butted spokes of the proper length and at the proper tension and those wheels should be better than new. Get a couple extra to use as spares but it is pretty likely you won't ever need them.
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Old 07-24-19, 03:26 PM
  #68  
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OK, I'll make it easy for you. MEC sold me a touring bike. From the looks of it, it was designed as a cyclocross bike originally, or MEC used a cyclocross design to start with.

Why is this so important? Are you going to be ok?
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Old 07-25-19, 07:50 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by BeeRich
OK, I'll make it easy for you. MEC sold me a touring bike. From the looks of it, it was designed as a cyclocross bike originally, or MEC used a cyclocross design to start with.

Why is this so important? Are you going to be ok?
Just amused that you initially claimed it was a cyclocross bike that had been 'repurposed', then said it was not a cyclocross bike and why are people asking all these questions about cyclocross bikes, then said you didn't know what a cyclocross bike was. Amused.

I'm fine. Thanks for asking.

To answer your question:
There is no quick fix for multiple spoke breakage. Either replace all the spokes or replace the wheel. Spokes generally break due to fatigue, and if the wheel has seen enough stress cycles to break 3 spokes, the rest of the spokes have seen the same and are near the end of their lives, too. You can replace the broken spokes and bring the tension on the whole wheel up a bit, because spokes are much more prone to failure when they have insufficient tension, as each stress cycle goes from 'zero' (spoke is completely unloaded at the bottom of the wheel's rotation) to 'max' (bike is practically hanging from a single spoke at the top of the wheel's rotation), but individual spoke replacement is likely to not get you very far.

If you replace the wheel, get one hand-built, or machine built then hand tensioned by an experienced builder... although 'experienced builders' are probably a lot harder to find today than they were ~25 years ago, as most performance-oriented cyclists who would have wanted fancy handbuilt wheels in 1994 are probably riding on factory built wheels today... so maybe just a person with a tension meter is all you need to find.
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Old 07-25-19, 08:02 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier
If you replace the wheel, get one hand-built, or machine built then hand tensioned by an experienced builder... although 'experienced builders' are probably a lot harder to find today than they were ~25 years ago, as most performance-oriented cyclists who would have wanted fancy handbuilt wheels in 1994 are probably riding on factory built wheels today... so maybe just a person with a tension meter is all you need to find.
You read it multiple times yet you missed the point where I said I was on tour. I can't chase down people owning tension meters while on tour. My question was about the overall general nature of why something like this would happen.

As for the cyclocross nature of the bike, it does have a lot of aspects of one in comparison to traditional touring bikes, disc brakes being one of them. If you take a look at touring bikes, they don't come close to this type of design. I assumed cyclocross bikes would be tough and that's why they might have chosen this design to make a touring bike from. MEC doesn't make bikes. They outsource to another company which they will never disclose. I'm not sure who made the design decisions.
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Old 07-25-19, 08:29 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by BeeRich
You read it multiple times yet you missed the point where I said I was on tour. I can't chase down people owning tension meters while on tour. My question was about the overall general nature of why something like this would happen.
I know you were on tour, and like I said, there is no 'quick fix' beyond threading a new spoke in and crossing your fingers, then replacing another spoke in the next town. But towns often have bike shops, and bike shops sell bike parts, including wheels, and sometimes have a dusty old tech in the back who can build a wheel. No quick fix. Your wheel is toast. Soft pedal to a shop and bite the bullet.

Originally Posted by BeeRich
As for the cyclocross nature of the bike, it does have a lot of aspects of one in comparison to traditional touring bikes, disc brakes being one of them. If you take a look at touring bikes, they don't come close to this type of design. I assumed cyclocross bikes would be tough and that's why they might have chosen this design to make a touring bike from.
CX bikes make awesome touring bikes, provided you can set it up to carry luggage properly, which you did. I never questioned the bike or why you chose it, just your confusing messages about 'converted CX bike/marketed as a dedicated touring bike/never heard the term 'cyclocross bike', and now 'I thought a cyclocross bike would be a good choice'.

Originally Posted by BeeRich
MEC doesn't make bikes. They outsource to another company which they will never disclose. I'm not sure who made the design decisions.
Welcome to Earth, c. 2019. (almost) All bike brands get their bikes made by contract builders. A few maintain a facility to build a limited number of their own bikes, but usually just the most expensive models.
Also, MEC never marketed that bike as a 'tourer', but as an 'all-rounder' that can be used for touring, which you proved is true. You can find the 2011 MEC catalogue online. They had another bike called the Nineteen Seventy One, which has slightly less ambiguous language describing it as a touring bike, but it looks very similar to the Cot - same frame, possibly.
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Old 07-25-19, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier
I know you were on tour, and like I said, there is no 'quick fix' beyond threading a new spoke in and crossing your fingers, then replacing another spoke in the next town. But towns often have bike shops, and bike shops sell bike parts, including wheels, and sometimes have a dusty old tech in the back who can build a wheel. No quick fix. Your wheel is toast. Soft pedal to a shop and bite the bullet.



CX bikes make awesome touring bikes, provided you can set it up to carry luggage properly, which you did. I never questioned the bike or why you chose it, just your confusing messages about 'converted CX bike/marketed as a dedicated touring bike/never heard the term 'cyclocross bike', and now 'I thought a cyclocross bike would be a good choice'.



Welcome to Earth, c. 2019. (almost) All bike brands get their bikes made by contract builders. A few maintain a facility to build a limited number of their own bikes, but usually just the most expensive models.
Also, MEC never marketed that bike as a 'tourer', but as an 'all-rounder' that can be used for touring, which you proved is true. You can find the 2011 MEC catalogue online. They had another bike called the Nineteen Seventy One, which has slightly less ambiguous language describing it as a touring bike, but it looks very similar to the Cot - same frame, possibly.
I was worried once when I had two spokes broken. I wasn't sure how much stress was shifted onto a different setup with those broken. I chased a bike shop and that was quite a ways away. Nice guys actually, got a sticker. Young guys.

Here's the entry for the bike (see image).

Apparently it was mis-labelled, given the wheelset is inadequate.

All in all, I love the bike. Replaced the handlebars with touring bars and kitted it up with racks. She's a tank, but wheelset needs attention.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1000_.jpg
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