WizardOfBoz

I laced my first wheel. It's true and round, and the spoke tension is pretty good I think. But the spokes don't lay against the hub flange. See the photo, below, or Jobst Brand's drawing (from "The Bicycle Wheel", by Jobst Brandt). As I understand it, I could
1) Bend all the spokes against the flange by squeezing opposing spokes together - this seems like it might be difficult.
2) bend all the spokes as shown in the second drawing
3) Use washers to pull the spoke close to the flange.
Advice?

ThermionicScott 

Brass #2 washers. Add some bling!

Andrew R Stewart 

Here's my SA alloy AW hub with brass spacing washers under the spoke heads. Andy

WizardOfBoz

Both setups look nice. Thermionic's wheels are blingy. Andrew, I noted that the list of bikes you own includes six bikes that you made. That's impressive as heck!

I could use washers, and the two votes above carry a lot of weight. But since I'm trying to make this pretty much stock I'm resisting. The question is: are the spokes bowed out away from the hub because I didn't prebend them properly during installation? Jobst recommeded bending them in place so that they laid down (the second drawing was supposedly for thinner hub flanges, as for example, steel hubs).

I'm thinking of going through the wheel and bending each spoke in place to lie flat, as opposed to taking each spoke out and adding a washer. Will that work? Or if I'm going to bend the spoke to fix this, should I remove the spoke and to the spoke set shown in the second Brandt drawing?

Jeff Wills

Part of the problem is that spokes themselves have changed over time. Back in the day of galvanized spokes, the distance from the bend to the forged (I think...) head was short enough that the spokes would lay flat on that era's thin flanges. Since then flanges have gotten thicker to allow for radial lacing and generally beefier hubs. IIRC, Wheelsmith led this charge in the '80's, followed by DT and the others.

So if you combine old hubs with new spokes, you'll end up with the situation in the "unmodified" and "modified" pictures. You could "modify" the spokes by pushing down on the outside spokes so they lay flat against the flange. This will reduce the tension in these spokes, so you'll need to go through and re-tension them. The "outside" spokes will need more work than the "inside" but check them all.

IMO, it's better to have the bend of the spoke supported by the material of the flange. You can see this when using old aluminum hubs- the bend will have created a channel in the flange that contacts the inner radius of the spoke. In order to have a "new" spoke conform to this channel (remember, the bend is farther away from the head) a washer under the head is needed.

I'm facing that situation myself- relacing a set of crusty old wheels with modern stainless spokes. I'll be using brass washers under the heads.

Gresp15C

Another vote for washers if they're needed. Old steel hubs seem to have thinner flanges. I've ended up using washers in nearly all of my builds on older hubs.

Moe Zhoost

If this is your finished wheel, I think it looks ok. I've built dozens of wheels without washers, just bending the spokes at the hub as Jobst recommends. Tens of thousands of miles on many of them with nary an issue. I'd not hesitate to use washers though, if the idea provides comfort. I may try them on my next wheel build.

cyccommute 

I’ve never used spoke washers on any wheel and I’ve been building them since 1986. Never even knew about spoke washers until about 5 or 6 years ago. I’ve also not had any problem with the spokes forming to the hub nor breakage because the flanges are too thin. Your wheel looks good and I wouldn’t do much too it. I might have formed the spokes around the hub a bit more during the initial phase of the build but the spoke will find their own set soon enough. Just keep an eye on tension and you should be fine.

I got to say that this is about the most “wrong” illustration I’ve seen. If you took your spokes and pounded them flat with a hammer, you might get them to that bend. But using the technique that Jobst and other use of bending the spokes down with a lever wouldn’t leave them like that. It would cause the bend to be a little sharper but not shallow like in the picture.

WizardOfBoz

All, thanks. Will advise.

Cyccomute, I have some background in mfr'ing. You could make a spoke bending jig to get that bend pretty easy. But I think I may just try to bend the spokes individually. At least for the rear wheel which I've yet to do.

ThermionicScott 

I wish I could take credit! That's from a post by @JaccoW that I remembered.

In my case, I used them less for aesthetic reasons, and more because I received DT spokes from that brief era where they made the elbows extra long. Being extra-thin spokes (1.8/1.6/1.8) I wanted to make sure they had as much support as possible. No pictures since the washers have gotten tarnished and the wheels are currently dirty from RAGBRAI.

cyccommute 

It’s best to form them to the hub...that’s where they are going to spend their lives. I use a left crank arm to push down on the top spokes and pull up on the bottom spokes. Like this

Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr

The spokes will eventually take that kind of bend if you do nothing but they lose tension doing it.

WizardOfBoz

Ok, so I went back and looked at the original spokes. They have about the same geometry, and so for 40 years the spoke gaps looked like what I show in the photo. I think I'll use the LH crank arm method to form in place. Again, will advise, and thanks to all.

JaccoW

It is one of those things you do, just because you know it's there. So yeah, for me it was for aesthetic reasons.
I did however need to bend the spokes inwards a bit.

I do have an alloy Sturmey Archer FM 4-speed hub that probably does need them when I start building a wheel around that one.

Two more pics: