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Compatibility 8 speed cassette Shimano vs. Campagnolo

Old 10-24-19, 02:34 AM
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Compatibility 8 speed cassette Shimano vs. Campagnolo

Hi,
I've found info saying one thing and other sources in the opposite direction.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html
Campagnolo/Shimano 8-speed cassettes have different spacing , so you can't generally get good indexing using a Campagnolo 8-speed wheel with a Shimano shift system or vice versa.

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/1232/bi...compatibility/
Campagnolo 8 speed cassettes have just slightly different sprocket thickness and spacing, compared to Shimano, so they can be mixed with Shimano 8 speed shifters and derailleurs, with index shifting working good.

I he saying that the important thing here is spacing+ thickness seen together.
Can we discuss?
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Old 10-24-19, 03:12 AM
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The 'spacing' is the dimension of one cog and one spacer - for Shimano 8s, that's 4.8mm, for Campy 8s it's 5mm.

That's too much of a discrepancy for good shifting. Some folks may disagree, maybe they don't know what good shifting is, maybe they're using worn gear that soaks up the discrepancy in all the slop.
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Old 10-24-19, 07:07 AM
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Back when 8 speeds were popular I bought correcting spacers from Wheels Manufacturing (still ride the bike) and also ran a Jtec Shiftmate #1 for a while. I suspect the Jtec company was created to deal with this specific 8 speed spacing issue and now has a dozen models to correct these spacing issues to 11 speed.
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Old 10-24-19, 10:58 AM
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Ok, spacing is then measured center sprocket to center next sprocket not space between sprockets as I thought.
I asked because I has a par of nice shamal wheels I wanted to use together with a dura ace 7400.
I don´t even know If itś a difference between campagnolo hubs for 7 or 8 speed.
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Old 10-24-19, 11:10 AM
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I also have conversion spacer kit to convert Shimano cogs (8 speed) to Campy spacing. But I found that the extra width made the small cog almost not grab the splines and the lockring was only threaded on by a couple of turns when tight. Just a bit too little on both counts for my preferences. So that's when I found the Shiftmate adaptors. Now I have a number of then on bikes. Andy
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Old 10-24-19, 12:25 PM
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As a point of reference: I've taken an SRAM PG850 11-28t cassette, pulled it apart, stuck Campagnolo spacers in there, and it works fine.
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Old 10-25-19, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by easyupbug
Back when 8 speeds were popular I bought correcting spacers from Wheels Manufacturing (still ride the bike) and also ran a Jtec Shiftmate #1 for a while. I suspect the Jtec company was created to deal with this specific 8 speed spacing issue and now has a dozen models to correct these spacing issues to 11 speed.
Hi,
mmm. I don't undrstand this.

I know dura ace 8 speed has different cable pull than other 8 speed groupsets. Does it work with dura ace 8 speed then?


Shifter Derailleur Cassette type and speed Pulley groove that cable enters

Shimano 8 speed road or MTB Shimano road to 10 Campagnolo 8 speed Small


Shiftmate 1 for mixing wheelsets or Campagnolo & Shimano 8, 9 & 10 shifting combinations
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Old 10-25-19, 08:23 AM
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What many people don't know, or say, is that the early DA 8 speed indexed system also was based around a thicker cable. As the thicker cables were the industry standard back then (and Campy gear cables were even slightly thicker back then). When the first 600 (Ultegra) came out Shimano re speced to the, now common, 1.2mm cable thickness so to reduce cable friction within casings and around guides.

Why is this interesting? Because with the larger cable the early DA also used a slightly smaller diameter cable spool (the thing in the lever that the cable is seated in and wraps around during the shifting). Generally there is enough slop and clearance (remember we're dealing with 4.8mm c-c cogs, not the really close one in today's cassettes) so the small cable diameter difference between a 1.2mm current cable and the spec diameter (IDR, maybe 1.5mm?) doesn't upset the actual chain/cog meshing after a shift.

When Shimano introduced indexed shifting (as in SIS and not their years older Positron systems) they stated 17 aspects of the system as being important for a well working drivetrain. I can only remember: rear der cable pull ratio, guide pulley, lever, cable diameter, casing, casing end caps, cable stop design, cable stop placements, cable guides, chain, cog spacing, cog set's lack of "orbital/float", cog tooth profiles, drop out hanger dimension, hanger der hole tab location and there's a few more. Of course since we've had indexed systems for so long (longer then some of the readers here have been alive!) these details/elements are thought of as a given. But back in the early 1980s the bike industry was anything but standardized. Components were made by dozens of factories in many countries. Each factory/company had their own set of "this is what we do" guidelines. With friction systems this was usually OK as the rider's hand controlled shifting overshift and trim back. Most here today likely don't remember when SunTour introduced their Ultra spec freewheels and we LBS people had to figure out which chain a bike needed, this simple aspect was messed up by many till we all caught on.

History leasson is finished. There will be a test when that old bike comes in for repair Andy
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Old 10-29-19, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
What many people don't know, or say, is that the early DA 8 speed indexed system also was based around a thicker cable. As the thicker cables were the industry standard back then (and Campy gear cables were even slightly thicker back then). When the first 600 (Ultegra) came out Shimano re speced to the, now common, 1.2mm cable thickness so to reduce cable friction within casings and around guides.


Most here today likely don't remember when SunTour introduced their Ultra spec freewheels and we LBS people had to figure out which chain a bike needed, this simple aspect was messed up by many till we all caught on.

History leasson is finished. There will be a test when that old bike comes in for repair Andy
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Old 10-29-19, 09:04 AM
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...out of curiosity (and because that was the only wheel I had just then), I ran an 8 speed Campagnolo hub with Shimano (regular, not Dura Ace) indexing DT shifters for a while on an old Bottecchia. I got it to sort of work (mostly) by adjusting it so the rear derailleur ( a SRAM/Rival ) was centered pretty closely when the thing was in the middle two cogs. Then, the farther out it went in either direction, it went a little farther off where it needed to be to catch the right cog. The play in the indexing derailleur guide pulley mostly made up for that.

But it never worked real well, so I eventually built a Shimano hubbed wheel for it.

Experiment is your best teacher in this, but its hard to make something work better than using the stuff that was designed to go together in the first place. And in the case of 8 speed, both the cog clusters and the current DT shifters are pretty cheap right now, if you buy them on the internet. The Sunrace 8 speed cogs that fit Shimano are even cheaper. There seems to be no way to make Campagnolo stuff cheaper, so if you have a Campy hub or Campy shifters, it often turns out to be cheaper and easier to just buy whichever Shimano part you need and go from there. Or just go with friction.
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Old 10-30-19, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...out of curiosity (and because that was the only wheel I had just then), I ran an 8 speed Campagnolo hub with Shimano (regular, not Dura Ace) indexing DT shifters for a while on an old Bottecchia. I got it to sort of work (mostly) by adjusting it so the rear derailleur ( a SRAM/Rival ) was centered pretty closely when the thing was in the middle two cogs. Then, the farther out it went in either direction, it went a little farther off where it needed to be to catch the right cog. The play in the indexing derailleur guide pulley mostly made up for that.

But it never worked real well, so I eventually built a Shimano hubbed wheel for it.

Experiment is your best teacher in this, but its hard to make something work better than using the stuff that was designed to go together in the first place. And in the case of 8 speed, both the cog clusters and the current DT shifters are pretty cheap right now, if you buy them on the internet. The Sunrace 8 speed cogs that fit Shimano are even cheaper. There seems to be no way to make Campagnolo stuff cheaper, so if you have a Campy hub or Campy shifters, it often turns out to be cheaper and easier to just buy whichever Shimano part you need and go from there. Or just go with friction.
I think I'm gonna custom a campagnolo record cassette with shimano spacing (3,9) so then adjust it in the middel cogs. I don't think the 0,1mm (maibe 0.05?) difference in spacing will work that bad.
Campagnolo
8-speed 5.0 mm 1.9 mm 3.1 mm
Shimano
8-speed 4.8 mm 1.8 (1,85) mm 3.0 mm
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Old 08-16-23, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
What many people don't know, or say, is that the early DA 8 speed indexed system also was based around a thicker cable. As the thicker cables were the industry standard back then (and Campy gear cables were even slightly thicker back then). When the first 600 (Ultegra) came out Shimano re speced to the, now common, 1.2mm cable thickness so to reduce cable friction within casings and around guides.

Why is this interesting? Because with the larger cable the early DA also used a slightly smaller diameter cable spool (the thing in the lever that the cable is seated in and wraps around during the shifting). Generally there is enough slop and clearance (remember we're dealing with 4.8mm c-c cogs, not the really close one in today's cassettes) so the small cable diameter difference between a 1.2mm current cable and the spec diameter (IDR, maybe 1.5mm?) doesn't upset the actual chain/cog meshing after a shift.

When Shimano introduced indexed shifting (as in SIS and not their years older Positron systems) they stated 17 aspects of the system as being important for a well working drivetrain. I can only remember: rear der cable pull ratio, guide pulley, lever, cable diameter, casing, casing end caps, cable stop design, cable stop placements, cable guides, chain, cog spacing, cog set's lack of "orbital/float", cog tooth profiles, drop out hanger dimension, hanger der hole tab location and there's a few more. Of course since we've had indexed systems for so long (longer then some of the readers here have been alive!) these details/elements are thought of as a given. But back in the early 1980s the bike industry was anything but standardized. Components were made by dozens of factories in many countries. Each factory/company had their own set of "this is what we do" guidelines. With friction systems this was usually OK as the rider's hand controlled shifting overshift and trim back. Most here today likely don't remember when SunTour introduced their Ultra spec freewheels and we LBS people had to figure out which chain a bike needed, this simple aspect was messed up by many till we all caught on.

History leasson is finished. There will be a test when that old bike comes in for repair Andy
I know this is reviving an old thread but I thought I would throw in something I found today...

From what I am seeing the early Dura-Ace 8-speed indexed shifters/derailleur take a 1.2mm cable and not a thicker one. Here is a picture from the ST-7400 service manual which specifies the 1.2 cable:

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Old 08-16-23, 05:55 PM
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Well, my mistake was remembering the cable diameter difference was for the 8 cog versions. I now believe it was only for the first 6 cog version. When Shimano trickle downed SIS to Ultrgra/600 they went to the 1.2 cable size and it was very soon later that DA went to it too.

It was very interesting to be around during that period with Campy becoming the odd brand out, die hard friction shifter riders swearing/laughing at SIS, SunTour loosing market share right and left as Shimano really led the world in engineering and marketing. Shimano early on listed the 17 (I think that's the number) design/part spec aspects that needed to be up to their standards for SIS to work as well as it was intended. Some of these were: guide pulley float, der. actuation ratio, chain link profile, cog spacing and tooth profiles, cable and casing, chain line, cable casing stops (yes, either brazed on or clamped on), drop out dimensions and B screw stop location. I know I am missing some... Andy
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Old 08-16-23, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
It was very interesting to be around during that period with Campy becoming the odd brand out, die hard friction shifter riders swearing/laughing at SIS, SunTour loosing market share right and left as Shimano really led the world in engineering and marketing. Shimano early on listed the 17 (I think that's the number) design/part spec aspects that needed to be up to their standards for SIS to work as well as it was intended. Some of these were: guide pulley float, der. actuation ratio, chain link profile, cog spacing and tooth profiles, cable and casing, chain line, cable casing stops (yes, either brazed on or clamped on), drop out dimensions and B screw stop location. I know I am missing some... Andy
Thanks for helping me resuscitate this topic!

I’m sure it would’ve been really interesting and possibly a little frustrating to be around bikes in that period. Campy is still the odd one out these days…at least in market share anyway. Shimano is less exciting. Maybe it’s just all new bike parts are less interesting?
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Old 08-16-23, 08:41 PM
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I'll just give one example without any knowledge of what the spacing and shift lever cable pull differences are. I successfully used Campy 8 speed indexed shifters with a Shimano 8 speed cassette.

As most know, JTek makes adapters (Shiftmate) that can adapt various shifters to various cassettes and vice versa. I had a Campy 8 speed indexed shifter. I had a Shimano wheel with a Shimano (Or sram) 8 speed cassette. I bought the correct JTek shiftmate device to use the wheel/cassette with the shifter. I forgot to put the Shiftmate on when I built up the bike . I rode it several times before noticing it, and it shifted fine. Was it "perfect"? I really can't recall, but it was good enough that I didn't notice I'd forgotten the Shiftmate. So I just used it until I got the Campy 8 speed hub built into a wheel to use with the shifters. I never used the Shiftmate

Again, I didn't notice any radical change for the better.
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Old 08-17-23, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...out of curiosity (and because that was the only wheel I had just then), I ran an 8 speed Campagnolo hub with Shimano (regular, not Dura Ace) indexing DT shifters for a while on an old Bottecchia. I got it to sort of work (mostly) by adjusting it so the rear derailleur ( a SRAM/Rival ) was centered pretty closely when the thing was in the middle two cogs. Then, the farther out it went in either direction, it went a little farther off where it needed to be to catch the right cog. The play in the indexing derailleur guide pulley mostly made up for that.

But it never worked real well, so I eventually built a Shimano hubbed wheel for it.

Experiment is your best teacher in this, but its hard to make something work better than using the stuff that was designed to go together in the first place. And in the case of 8 speed, both the cog clusters and the current DT shifters are pretty cheap right now, if you buy them on the internet. The Sunrace 8 speed cogs that fit Shimano are even cheaper. There seems to be no way to make Campagnolo stuff cheaper, so if you have a Campy hub or Campy shifters, it often turns out to be cheaper and easier to just buy whichever Shimano part you need and go from there. Or just go with friction.
Cable pull for a SRAM Rival derailleur being so much, I can't imagine this came even close to working. SRAM uses close to twice the cable per shift that Shimano would, so it would take nearly two clicks for the Shimano shifter to move the SRAM derailleur one cog.
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Old 08-17-23, 08:49 AM
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I run Shiftmates on a number of my bikes (Shimano 9 cog cassettes w/ Campy ders and levers). For their intended purpose they have worked well for me and the few customers I have installed them for. Andy
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Old 08-24-23, 06:38 AM
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Glad this thread is still active. I currently have a number of 1990's road bikes which all use index 8 speed. Half are Shimano DA STI and half are Campy Ergo (Record and Chorus).

My initial question is I ordered some relatively inexpensive carbon wheels that have Shimano type hub (cassette) body which I plan to use on one one of the Campy 8 sp Ergo bikes Will a original Campy 8 sp cassette fit onto its Shimano hub body? In other words are the splines of the two brands the same when comparing their respective 8 speed?

​​​If by chance the answer is yes and the Campy 8 speed cassette fits onto the Shimano hub body, since the Campy cassette I believe is a fraction wider, will I have trouble tightening the lock ring with sufficient number of rotations on the remaining threads? I have some additional 8 speed questions but I first.await responses. Thanks very much in advance!
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Old 08-25-23, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DandA456

My initial question is... Will a original Campy 8 sp cassette fit onto its Shimano hub body? In other words are the splines of the two brands the same when comparing their respective 8 speed?
...no. That would make things too easy.
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Old 08-25-23, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...no. That would make things too easy.
Thanks very much for your reply. since it was very late last night, I just threw on a 8 sp Shimano XTR 13-26 cassette onto the Carbon wheel Shimano hub body. What was strange is usually the last cog (in this case the 13t) didn't appear to have those ridges that the lock ring has on its underside, so that when I tightened the lock ring, it was smooth in its rotation locking rather than the usual racket sound one hears when tightening the lock ring. Maybe the 13t cog was backwards?

Now getting back to my original question, I wish I had for curiosity sake tried the 8 sp Campy cassette on this hub. The cutouts for the splines on the Campy 8 sp cassette looked identical to the 8 sp Shimano cassette but I'm sure as you mentioned, it's different. The wheel manufacturer says the hub can take Shimano or Campy but this must be incorrect unless there is such a thing????

I did those use the spaces ring behind the 8 speed Shimano cassette since the hub body could take up to 11sp cassette.

When I shifted, I noticed maybe the slightest difference between using the XTR cassette with the 8 sp Ergo levers vs using the Campy 8 sp cassette. Again the difference was barely perceptible which maybe I I could attribute to the the entire drivetrain inc Rolf chain being 30 years old , so their is a bit of slip or play.

Anyhow a long ride with the drivetrain under pressure will be the tail tail sign. Thanks!
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Old 08-25-23, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by DandA456
The cutouts for the splines on the Campy 8 sp cassette looked identical to the 8 sp Shimano cassette but I'm sure as you mentioned, it's different. The wheel manufacturer says the hub can take Shimano or Campy but this must be incorrect unless there is such a thing????
...maybe there is now. All things are possible in this best of all possible worlds. But there did not used to be such a thing. Maybe the world has progressed to a better state ?
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Old 08-25-23, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...maybe there is now. All things are possible in this best of all possible worlds. But there did not used to be such a thing. Maybe the world has progressed to a better state ?
I may find out today if the hub on these wheels can take both a Campy and Shimano 8 sp cassette.

On a separate note I think I know why the lock ring on the 8 speed XTR Shimano cassette didn't have teeth on the last small cog. I looked and for whatever reason whey I purchased this used cassette there appears to be a paper thin copper color spacer/washer between the last small cog (13T) and the lock ring, blacking those micro grooves that the teeth in the lock ring catch. Wonder if that paper thin spacer was put there as a mistake by someone?
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Old 08-25-23, 10:59 AM
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8 speed DA cassette and hub with Wheels Mfg spacers used successfully with Ergo 8 speed. IIRC I did buy an aftermarket lock ring to get more thread engagement.
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Old 08-29-23, 09:48 PM
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Perhaps this has already been answered, but would it be possible to use spacers from a Shimano 7-speed cassette with a set of Shimano 8-speed cogs to create the correct Campy 5mm spacing?
Are Shimano 7-speed and 8-speed cogs the same thickness?
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Old 08-29-23, 11:38 PM
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two old shimano 7sp measure 1.9mm'
two sunrace cassettes measure 1.9mm, a 7 and an 8sp.
a new shimano hg51 8sp. measures 1.83mm

these are measured at the biggest cog, away from any shift aid cuts.
the small cogs vary, but are a bit wider, near or above 2mm, at the tooth base.
the second smallest cog on all of them has a machined shoulder that may make things tougher to sort out.

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