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Dropout washer coming out of carbon frame: Warranty Issue?

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Dropout washer coming out of carbon frame: Warranty Issue?

Old 11-25-19, 10:34 AM
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Chris O
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Dropout washer coming out of carbon frame: Warranty Issue?

Hi All,

I have a carbon fiber frame from an Italian company that is about 2.5 years old. One of the washers (for lack of a better term) that is on either side of the dropout keeps falling off. I guess it was bonded to the dropout. There is one on each side that the quick release clamps on to. There is a 5 year warranty on the frame. Does this sound like something a company would honor a warranty claim for?

Eventually during maintenance this washer is probably going to get lost and the wheel won't sit right.

Chris
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Old 11-25-19, 10:36 AM
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They should
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Old 11-25-19, 11:21 AM
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While you might get the problem fixed on warranty, it's a lot of trouble for a minor problem. If it's really just a washer that prevents damage to the carbon, all that may be needed is some cleaning, a little light sanding and some epoxy to glue it back into place.
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Old 11-25-19, 11:27 AM
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Any recommendations on what brand of epoxy will work best for something like this? Thanks.
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Old 11-25-19, 11:49 AM
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Wow! Seems to be a bit of this lately regarding carbon frames and washers coming loose! Rear wheel slipped out, washed detached from forks Respondents to the prev.thread know more about carbon than I, some good info there.
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Old 11-25-19, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris O View Post
Any recommendations on what brand of epoxy will work best for something like this? Thanks.
Any repair will not likely endure better than the original and may void the warranty.
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Old 11-25-19, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris O View Post
Any recommendations on what brand of epoxy will work best for something like this? Thanks.
Any good quality epoxy should work. Just be sure to mix it precisely according to the directions.

I'd see about trying to get the work done under warranty if a warranty is still in effect. If a warranty is in effect and you do the work yourself then most likely that warranty will be voided.

Edit. Is that the Wilier GTR SL you bought back in 2017?

Cheers

Last edited by Miele Man; 11-25-19 at 01:19 PM. Reason: added question for the OP
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Old 11-25-19, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
Any good quality epoxy should work. Just be sure to mix it precisely according to the directions.

I'd see about trying to get the work done under warranty if a warranty is still in effect. If a warranty is in effect and you do the work yourself then most likely that warranty will be voided.

Edit. Is that the Wilier GTR SL you bought back in 2017?

Cheers
Yes, it is. It's been great otherwise and I've put about 10,000 miles on it.
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Old 11-25-19, 04:53 PM
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A whole lot of different glues would work to hold a washer in place. If you work fast, a 5-minute type would work. JB Weld is great stuff. I'd get the washer in place, put the wheel in place and tighten the skewer lightly to hold it while the epoxy cures, or use a c-clamp.
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Old 11-25-19, 09:32 PM
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When fixing skis we learned to only tighten the clamps, holding the two parts together, partially for the first period of bonding set up. Then after a bit fully tighten the clamps down. Much like when gluing sew ups. partial tire pressure while positioning the tire straight then 15 minutes later full pressure. I have followed this advice when gluing pretty much anything together. Andy
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Old 11-26-19, 05:50 AM
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On another thread somebody recommended 3M DP 460. it's not cheap. You could "try" JBWeld, that is probably what I'd use.

couple thoughts - Andrew's comments on clamping pressure are useful. Build a tool from an old axle or use the wheel to clamp the "washer" in there while the epoxy cures. You want the face of the "washer" to cure exactly parallel to the complimentary part on the other side.

Remember your surface prep is EVERYTHING. Make sure the mating surfaces are absolutely clean. Use alcohol and let it dry.

Lastly at this time of year - don't let it cure out in a cold garage. you might try a heat gun, but even better in a warm house for 24 hours.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
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Old 11-26-19, 06:12 AM
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[QUOTE=mpetry912;212238.

Lastly at this time of year - don't let it cure out in a cold garage. you might try a heat gun, but even better in a warm house for 24 hours.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA[/QUOTE]

cure temp is extremely important.
i am a certified auto body tech. i work with catalyzed products every day. i often use epoxy based products to bond cars together.
once the epoxy gets below 58* the catalyst stops working.
make sure the part you are bonding is warm BEFORE you apply the epoxy. the cure temp is usually measured at the part itself being bonded, not air temp the part sits in.
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Old 11-26-19, 06:26 AM
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I would definitely give the dealership a chance to look at it and deal with it under warranty before I tried to make a repair that could void the warranty.
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Old 11-26-19, 12:34 PM
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So the answer to your question is yes. But contact the mfr or go through the LBS where you purchased this bike. See what they say. If no, report the make and what they said back here.

If no joy from the mfr, use a good epoxy (3m and West Systems are two). Clean the washer and the frame area where the joint is. I'm assuming that there's a little hole where the washer inserts, so that you won't have a problem positioning. If not, you could use a wheel or a hub to position. I'd probably get a 10mm nylon bolt and nut from home despot to allow you to position and clamp the thing together with minimal likelihood of gluing the QR or the wheel axle to your dropout. But the wheel/hub probably gives better alignment.

I like Andy's approach. Light clamping lets the epoxy set up a bit and avoids squeezing out all the epoxy and weakening the joint. Then hard clamping simulates service duty conditions. And given mrt2you's expertise, keep it at room temp to cure!

I'm jonesin' to try that 3m DP460. But I have some West Systems flexible epoxy (G-flex) on hand that I'd probably use.

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Old 11-26-19, 12:47 PM
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Bumping: Anyone?

I did a search for the Wilier GTR SL and the Wilier site offers these things. Mechnical plates. What do they do?

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 11-27-19 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 11-27-19, 11:48 AM
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According to their site, they are cable stops for what I'm assuming is a mechanical drivetrain: "A spare set of the cable stop plates that come assembled on a GTR SL or GTR TEAM frame."
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Old 11-27-19, 12:27 PM
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Thanks all! The shop I bought the bike from is no longer listed as a Wilier dealer. So I'll submit the warranty claim on the manufacturer Web site and see what they'll do. If nothing, I'll follow the tips and epoxy it myself.

Chris
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Old 11-27-19, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
...
I like Andy's approach. Light clamping lets the epoxy set up a bit and avoids squeezing out all the epoxy and weakening the joint. Then hard clamping simulates service duty conditions. And given mrt2you's expertise, keep it at room temp to cure!
...
Glueing practice is well studied and the strongest glued joints have the thinnest layer of glue.
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Old 11-27-19, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post
Glueing practice is well studied and the strongest glued joints have the thinnest layer of glue.
As thin as practical, but not too thin would seem to be the proviso. What you say is true, provided you don't clamp the thing so hard you end up with no glue in the joint. For a wood glue example, see here. For an epoxy specific guitar-relevant discussion, see here.

The problem can be exacerbated if the two surfaces are hard and are very conformal. Then hard clamping gives you direct substrate-to-subtrate contact, with NO glue! Have a glue layer that's too thick for the bike example is a bit moot anyway, as you are epoxying to epoxy. The whole bike is an epoxy layer!

In any case, I trust Andrew - he seems like he pays attention to stuff. Light/moderate positional clamping following by heavier setting clamping makes sense to me, and he's had success with it.
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Old 11-27-19, 12:55 PM
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BTW, any idea what the "mechanical plate" in the pic above is?
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Old 11-27-19, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
As thin as practical, but not too thin would seem to be the proviso. What you say is true, provided you don't clamp the thing so hard you end up with no glue in the joint. For a wood glue example, see here. For an epoxy specific guitar-relevant discussion, see here.

The problem can be exacerbated if the two surfaces are hard and are very conformal. Then hard clamping gives you direct substrate-to-subtrate contact, with NO glue! Have a glue layer that's too thick for the bike example is a bit moot anyway, as you are epoxying to epoxy. The whole bike is an epoxy layer!

In any case, I trust Andrew - he seems like he pays attention to stuff. Light/moderate positional clamping following by heavier setting clamping makes sense to me, and he's had success with it.
The universe is not as you imagine. If hard clamping causes "NO glue!" then the wrong glue and/or poor surface prep are the issues. As for carbon fiber composite, the strongest has the lowest proportion of epoxy -- again, thinnest section. Best bonds are directly to the fiber.

No need to strain your imagination; best glueing practice is well documented.
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Old 11-27-19, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post
The universe is not as you imagine. If hard clamping causes "NO glue!" then the wrong glue and/or poor surface prep are the issues. As for carbon fiber composite, the strongest has the lowest proportion of epoxy -- again, thinnest section. Best bonds are directly to the fiber. No need to strain your imagination; best glueing practice is well documented.
I called West Systems (epoxy maker) tech service. Talked to Don. I asked

1) What West Systems product is recommended for carbon fiber? Answer: They recommended their 105 series resin and their 200 series hardener and pointed out that these products are used by high-end bike makers. Don suggested that one use a scarf joint or otherwise increase surface area, but this doesn't apply to the OP's problem.

2) Can you clamp too hard, such that you squeeze out the glue? Answer: The first word out of the guys mouth was "Definitely". Don went on to say that too high a clamping pressure can produce a glue joint that's glue-starved. Andrew's note had an implied problem: naively clamping the joint too hard initially caused poor adhesion, likely due to glue starvation. Andrew had better results clamping lightly initially. This lines up with Don's next suggestion. He proposed coating both surfaces to be glued with a very thin layer of epoxy and letting this cure partially. Then recoat one surface with fresh epoxy and clamp as hard as you like. The initial precoat won't squeeze out so you get a thin but high-fidelity joint. Don mentioned that this is especially useful in wood joints where one wants a super-thin and nearly invisible seam, but it also applies to CF.

Clamping too hard causing glue starvation was documented by the woodworking and guitar-making examples above, and apparently is a well-known problem to one of the top manufacturer's. This is not theory: it's documented practice. In fact, I'd suggest that one possible reason that the OP's "washer" broke off in the first place may have been too high an initial clamping pressure producing a glue-starved joint. Andrew's approach is one-step and more efficient but perhaps requires more "touch" as to how hard to clamp. If I were fixing it, I'd try the "West Systems" approach I think.

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 11-27-19 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 11-27-19, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
I called West Systems (epoxy maker) tech service. Talked to Don. I asked

1) What West Systems product is recommended for carbon fiber? Answer: They recommended their 105 series resin and their 200 series hardener and pointed out that these products are used by high-end bike makers. Don suggested that one use a scarf joint or otherwise increase surface area, but this doesn't apply to the OP's problem.

2) Can you clamp too hard, such that you squeeze out the glue? Answer: The first word out of the guys mouth was "Definitely". Don went on to say that too high a clamping pressure can produce a glue joint that's glue-starved. Andrew's note had an implied problem: naively clamping the joint too hard initially caused poor adhesion, likely due to glue starvation. Andrew had better results clamping lightly initially. This lines up with Don's next suggestion. He proposed coating both surfaces to be glued with a very thin layer of epoxy and letting this cure partially. Then recoat one surface with fresh epoxy and clamp as hard as you like. The initial precoat won't squeeze out so you get a thin but high-fidelity joint. Don mentioned that this is especially useful in wood joints where one wants a super-thin and nearly invisible seam, but it also applies to CF.

Clamping too hard causing glue starvation was documented by the woodworking and guitar-making examples above, and apparently is a well-known problem to one of the top manufacturer's. This is not theory: it's documented practice. In fact, I'd suggest that one possible reason that the OP's "washer" broke off in the first place may have been too high an initial clamping pressure producing a glue-starved joint. Andrew's approach is one-step and more efficient but perhaps requires more "touch" as to how hard to clamp. If I were fixing it, I'd try the "West Systems" approach I think.
That's contradictory. Starvation is due to inadequate application -- "clamp as hard as you like." Search "wetting" and "surface tension."
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Old 11-27-19, 04:06 PM
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Anklework, you have a theory that one can never apply too much clamping force, and that with the right glue, you can never squeeze enough glue out to weaken a joint. You state generalities and ask me to research them to prove you right (does that method work well for you elsewhere?)

I have done my own searching and have cited here specific examples where too much force causes a weaker joint. I checked with the manufacturer. They have experience based upon way more glue joints than I'll ever face. The state with no reservation that one can definitely apply too much clamping force and starve a joint of glue. In this thread a very savvy and experienced guy (Andrew) gave his recommendation which was tempered by commercial experience (that is, data) that clamping lightly first, then clamping with more force gives a stronger joint. This aligns with the info from the mfr. In fact, for some glues (Titebond, for wood) there is a range of clamping pressures recommended: 100-150 psi for softwood, 175-250 psi for hardwood. In an article entitled "Take it easy with clamping pressure", this statement is made: "The maximum recommended clamping pressure for most joints is 250 psi. Putting all your muscle into many common clamp styles generates excess pressure that could force out most of the glue and produce a weak bond." Additional sources for using epoxy on metal (for strain gages, presumably an application requiring a very good bond) recommends 45psi clamping pressure.

I'm a theory guy (why I have a lot of letters after my name). One thing about theory, though. It takes one valid contrary datum to break even the best theory. The weakest good data trumps the strongest theory. I've taken graduate classes in surface theory. Great stuff. The data tells us, though, that whatever the theory, too much clamping pressure produces a weaker joint. In part because of glue starvation.

The proposal that one can't apply enough pressure to squeeze out glue and make the joint weaker is just plain demonstrably wrong in practice. One could even infer from manufacturing practice (vacuum bagging) that 15psi provides a pretty good force for clamping epoxies..

The OP can choose his approach. If it were me, I'd use the two-step (coat, let cure, recoat, then clamp using moderate pressure) method.

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 11-29-19 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 11-27-19, 04:20 PM
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A lot over over thinking here. The washer only protects the carbon. It's not a structural member. Some contact adhesive or super glue would also work to hold it in place. All it has to do is not fall off.
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