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Shimano 600EX Chain, Derailleurs, Friction Shifters

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Shimano 600EX Chain, Derailleurs, Friction Shifters

Old 12-16-19, 08:46 AM
  #1  
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Shimano 600EX Chain, Derailleurs, Friction Shifters

Hi,

Working on my 1980s Nashbar Race ďSISĒ. Purchased in near mint condition and was shipped nicely by bike shop when I moved. I donít think my derailleurs are bent after manufacture significantly.

The chain was worn and I had started to be unsuccessful in shifting to the big ring.

I researched chains and went with the Shimano HG 71 for this 6 speed freewheel and/or cassette. Chain said HG, not sure if the old Shimano is UG and compatibility completely. Pretty sure the inner plate width is much the same as old chain, though the outer chain width appeared significantly wider. I think I was around 2.38mm on 6 speed inner chain width. Found a chart indicating outer width could be 7.1mm on 8 speed and 7.8mm on 6 speed. Screwy, because the replacement chain was marked 8 speed conspicuously and 6 and 7 speed slightly less conspicuously. Review please, the old chain, probably original for the 6 speed, had narrower outer plates.

It did seem that it might work anyway, but I ran into more issues. Chain was rubbing in front derailleur cage, so I worked with mount and limit adjustments and centered chain and cage, causing no rub in front derailleur. Chain seemed to be moving nice but I picked up on chain rub on rear derailleur cage related to where I had installed quick link. Wasnít easy to install quick link but I had read instructions and nicely used pliers to get it on, considering it was my first recent attempt with this type of link. Is there a 6 speed chain with a different connector that attaches better?

I
tried using tools to even out chain but could not eliminate rub on rear cage, near first quick link rivet and then later also around 2 rivets further. Chain ran but the rub sounded unacceptable. Still could not shift to big ring with friction shifter. Was able to overdo high limit and have it jump out front, and found wondrous the springing back of derailleur and my limited work with friction downtube shifters. Friction shifters looked simple, as Iíve heard, but interestingly seems both shift cables get affixed to shifters at a time, there appearing to be one screw securing both shifters, or very nearly. Could not get front derailleur to stay in big ring position while moving pedals and using shifter.

Considering removing front derailleur, though would be nice to be able to change up bike with use of both front rings. Could be satisfied just using big ring. May research chains and try another. May take friction shifters apart and practice cleaning and using cable, but I donít think the shifters nor cable are certainly primarily the problem(s). Chain length probably right, having used Calvin Jonesís Big ring to big cog plus two, method.

Reviewing previous thread about chains and know shifting issue could be based on wear or scratch on big ring, though I prefer to try narrower chain before replacing big ring. Cheers . . !


Last edited by eric044; 12-16-19 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 12-16-19, 09:22 AM
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Do you know how the system worked before you replaced the chain? Generally a narrower chain results in less rubbing at either end. The 6,7,8 speed chain should work well enough and is what many mechanics recommend these days for even 5 speed systems. But the new chain will act somewhat differently in a few aspects.

The chain is likely more flexible. So a greater amount of overshift and trim back often is called for. The narrower width can sometimes not settle into the small ring's teeth when down shifting. It can ride up on the tops of the teeth and drag along the big ring's inner side. The side plates are likely less "tall" or don't extend as far away from the roller. This makes the amount of lift up for the chain to clear a smaller cog will be less. But this also means that the chain will want to partially
derail" off the lower pulley and drag along the cage's plate. This can be more problematic with worn pulley teeth, a misaligned cage/pulley and/or cross chaining.

It's hard to really understand what's going on so this is all I got for now. Andy
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Old 12-16-19, 09:30 AM
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Sounds like you don't have enough cable tension for the front derailleur, or your spring/pivot is gummed up, or you need to tighten your shift lever. The FD is not indexed.
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Old 12-16-19, 10:14 AM
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I use a KMC 8-speed chain on my 6-cogs equipped bicycles without any problems. I use a quick-link on all my chains never a Shimano chain-pin to join the chain. OOPS! I see you used a quick-link. I don't know why you had to use pliers to join that quick-link. I've never had t o do that.

If the smallest cog on your bicycle screws on then it's a Uniglide cogset. Unless it's a freewheel and not a cassette.

You said: "I tried using tools to even out chain but could not eliminate rub on rear cage, near first quick link rivet and then later also around 2 rivets further..."

I'm confused as to what exactly you did there. Do you have tight links on t he chain?

You also stated: "but interestingly seems both shift cables get affixed to shifters at a time, there appearing to be one screw securing both shifters, or very nearly."

Are your shift levers mounted on the SIDES of the downtube? It almost sounds as though you have unusual shifters perhaps mounted on top of the downtube. Would you post an image of your shifters and also an image of your front derailleur and chain running through it?

Cheers
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Old 12-16-19, 10:33 AM
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Pictures would definitely help. And since you are using friction shifters you should be able to trim out any chain rub. Are your shifters mounted through the downtube with a single screw or something? Again, pictures would be helpful.
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Old 12-16-19, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Do you know how the system worked before you replaced the chain? Generally a narrower chain results in less rubbing at either end. The 6,7,8 speed chain should work well enough and is what many mechanics recommend these days for even 5 speed systems. But the new chain will act somewhat differently in a few aspects.

The chain is likely more flexible. So a greater amount of overshift and trim back often is called for. The narrower width can sometimes not settle into the small ring's teeth when down shifting. It can ride up on the tops of the teeth and drag along the big ring's inner side. The side plates are likely less "tall" or don't extend as far away from the roller. This makes the amount of lift up for the chain to clear a smaller cog will be less. But this also means that the chain will want to partially
derail" off the lower pulley and drag along the cage's plate. This can be more problematic with worn pulley teeth, a misaligned cage/pulley and/or cross chaining.

It's hard to really understand what's going on so this is all I got for now. Andy
The misalignment potential is probably interesting. The jockey teeth look ripe for me to study.
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Old 12-16-19, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Sounds like you don't have enough cable tension for the front derailleur, or your spring/pivot is gummed up, or you need to tighten your shift lever. The FD is not indexed.
Yup, I may want to take the shifters apart.
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Old 12-16-19, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by eric044 View Post
Hi,

Working on my 1980s Nashbar Race ďSISĒ. Purchased in near mint condition and was shipped nicely by bike shop when I moved. I donít think my derailleurs are bent after manufacture significantly.

The chain was worn and I had started to be unsuccessful in shifting to the big ring.

I researched chains and went with the Shimano HG 71 for this 6 speed freewheel and/or cassette. Chain said HG, not sure if the old Shimano is UG and compatibility completely. Pretty sure the inner plate width is much the same as old chain, though the outer chain width appeared significantly wider. I think I was around 2.38mm on 6 speed inner chain width. Found a chart indicating outer width could be 7.1mm on 8 speed and 7.8mm on 6 speed. Screwy, because the replacement chain was marked 8 speed conspicuously and 6 and 7 speed slightly less conspicuously. Review please, the old chain, probably original for the 6 speed, had narrower outer plates.

It did seem that it might work anyway, but I ran into more issues. Chain was rubbing in front derailleur cage, so I worked with mount and limit adjustments and centered chain and cage, causing no rub in front derailleur. Chain seemed to be moving nice but I picked up on chain rub on rear derailleur cage related to where I had installed quick link. Wasnít easy to install quick link but I had read instructions and nicely used pliers to get it on, considering it was my first recent attempt with this type of link. Is there a 6 speed chain with a different connector that attaches better?

I
tried using tools to even out chain but could not eliminate rub on rear cage, near first quick link rivet and then later also around 2 rivets further. Chain ran but the rub sounded unacceptable. Still could not shift to big ring with friction shifter. Was able to overdo high limit and have it jump out front, and found wondrous the springing back of derailleur and my limited work with friction downtube shifters. Friction shifters looked simple, as Iíve heard, but interestingly seems both shift cables get affixed to shifters at a time, there appearing to be one screw securing both shifters, or very nearly. Could not get front derailleur to stay in big ring position while moving pedals and using shifter.

Considering removing front derailleur, though would be nice to be able to change up bike with use of both front rings. Could be satisfied just using big ring. May research chains and try another. May take friction shifters apart and practice cleaning and using cable, but I donít think the shifters nor cable are certainly primarily the problem(s). Chain length probably right, having used Calvin Jonesís Big ring to big cog plus two, method.

Reviewing previous thread about chains and know shifting issue could be based on wear or scratch on big ring, though I prefer to try narrower chain before replacing big ring. Cheers . . !

Originally Posted by eric044 View Post
The misalignment potential is probably interesting. The jockey teeth look ripe for me to study.
Continue using the Markov chain and you will accomplish your goal.
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Old 12-16-19, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Pictures would definitely help. And since you are using friction shifters you should be able to trim out any chain rub. Are your shifters mounted through the downtube with a single screw or something? Again, pictures would be helpful.
That screw slot on the shifter is a flat area on the other shifter. Iím thinking there is a chain out there that wonít rub and I may need a lot of practice to get good at front derailleurs.



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Old 12-16-19, 04:39 PM
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You can try loosening the FD clamp and reposition the cage.
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Old 12-16-19, 06:35 PM
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+1 to above. Looks like the FD cage is too far from the chainring. The gap between cage and teeth should be minimal, about 1mm, or "closest possible without rubbing".
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Old 12-16-19, 06:59 PM
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Maybe I am not seeing the pics correctly but it appears that there is excessive play in the FD cable. I would suggest a a preset of the derailleur cage and then a re-tightening of the cable. It may be that the cable was actually too tight and when the cable tension was loosened the derailleur won't go to the same outer cage position, because of it. Smiles, MH
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Old 12-16-19, 10:38 PM
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On the picture of the front derailleur, it looks like the shift cable used to be clamped further "down" (up in the picture). Specifically the cable looks flattened and one strand is frayed where the cable used to be clamped. First, did someone re-position (raise) the derailleur; as someone mentioned above it looks like the derailleur is too high and should be lowered so teh cage clears the large chainring by about 1 millimeter.. Second, the cable looks loose as someone else mentioned. Try tightening it. After these are done, the flattened section of cable may be back where it used to be. Whether this helps or not is to be seen.
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Old 12-17-19, 08:29 AM
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It also looks like the FD shifter cable is frayed. I expect that simply shifting the Fd closer to the chainwheel (where it should be) and then tightening it will/may place the frayed cable in line with the retainer on the FD. Best practice would be to replace that cable but at minimum turn that loose strand 1 or 2 turns then snip it off so it can't catch.
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Old 12-17-19, 10:05 AM
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Hard to tell from that angle but iit looks like the RD hanger may be bent.


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Old 12-17-19, 10:25 AM
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As others have said, your front derailleur is mounted too high. I had a Suntour front derialleur mounted like that and I could not get it to shift to the large chainring. I moved the derailleur down to where it should be and then was able to shift to the big chainring with no problem at all.

It also looks as though your shift cables are a bit loose. Is there any play in the cables when the shifters are in their most forward position on the frame?

Each shifter has its own bolt for tightening.

One other thing. Please move the quick-release lever on the rear wheel so that it's not pointing straight down like it is now. In that position it's possible for it to catch on something an open. I like mine to face towards the rear or to lie along the chainstay.

Would you post an image of the rear derailleur taken from t he back of the bike with the bike right side up and vertical? That way we could have a better idea as to whether your derailleur hanger is bent or not..

Cheers
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Old 12-17-19, 02:59 PM
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There may also be an issue with the cable routing at the front derailleur - I don't know if this is true for your front derailleur, but many Shimano FDs have a washer with a tab off to one side, and the cable needs to run over this tab, not under it. It makes a difference for the leverage of the shifter acting on the derailleur. When you first look at it, it looks like the cable should run under the tab but it is very difficult to get the shifting to work acceptably like that.

Also your FD is too far from the chainring. The FD cage should be perfectly parallel to the chainrings, and the edge of the FD should be 2-3mm from the tip of the chainring teeth... it looks like you have it with about 8-10 mm.
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Old 12-23-19, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier View Post
There may also be an issue with the cable routing at the front derailleur - I don't know if this is true for your front derailleur, but many Shimano FDs have a washer with a tab off to one side, and the cable needs to run over this tab, not under it. It makes a difference for the leverage of the shifter acting on the derailleur. When you first look at it, it looks like the cable should run under the tab but it is very difficult to get the shifting to work acceptably like that.

Also your FD is too far from the chainring. The FD cage should be perfectly parallel to the chainrings, and the edge of the FD should be 2-3mm from the tip of the chainring teeth... it looks like you have it with about 8-10 mm.
Not sure where I should look for a washer and tab. Could you show a photo example?

I cleaned the jockey wheels but I donít think it made a huge difference, just some gunk on a piece in good condition. I suppose those wheels may retain gunk more than other parts. I will probably put this off a little and then do the following:

1. Position the front derailleur as advised here;
2. Check out small parts of friction shifters;
3. Tighten the FD cable as much as possible, replace or condense cable;
4. Take photo of RD for opinions on whether it is bent;
5. Replace RD or chain.

I got a chain with 7.1mm outer width compared to the 7.3mm on the Shimano HG71, I believe, another 8 speed chain, SRAM PC-870. Different master link on the Sram, pins being pushed through in opposite directions on the Sram whereas they were in same direction on Shimano. The small differences should allow for clearance on the RD, the other chain having made it but for the master link area.

Then an I will re-pack the headset, install a new screw for the front brake and hopefully it will be road worthy. Iím new to this bike and to some of its parts so I will probably want new rim tape in front soon and may want to grease all the screws and re-pack the hub bearings. From what I saw so far the small parts looked clean and unused but not greased.

If if I ride dry and need new axle I will need to find axle and cone standards on this vintage bike. I suppose I could find axles that fit and make sufficient with modern cones and revised spacers or slight spacing differences.
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Old 12-23-19, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by eric044 View Post
Not sure where I should look for a washer and tab. Could you show a photo example?
I don't have a photo.

But the tab would be part of a washer under the cable fixing bolt on the front derailleur, directly behind and obscured by the fixing bolt in the front derailleur pic you posted. The cable must run over the tab instead of under it. Routing it over the tab makes the lever arm of the derailleur slightly longer so it requires less tension to move the derailleur, but moves slightly less with each mm of cable movement.
If the cable is routed under this tab, the derailleur will be much more difficult to move, and the indexing (if it is indexed) will not work properly.
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Old 12-23-19, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier View Post
I don't have a photo.

But the tab would be part of a washer under the cable fixing bolt on the front derailleur, directly behind and obscured by the fixing bolt in the front derailleur pic you posted. The cable must run over the tab instead of under it. Routing it over the tab makes the lever arm of the derailleur slightly longer so it requires less tension to move the derailleur, but moves slightly less with each mm of cable movement.
If the cable is routed under this tab, the derailleur will be much more difficult to move, and the indexing (if it is indexed) will not work properly.
There seemed to be an indent on the FD, where the fixing bolt pinned the cable, as best I can recall.
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Old 12-23-19, 03:15 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
As others have said, your front derailleur is mounted too high. I had a Suntour front derialleur mounted like that and I could not get it to shift to the large chainring. I moved the derailleur down to where it should be and then was able to shift to the big chainring with no problem at all.

It also looks as though your shift cables are a bit loose. Is there any play in the cables when the shifters are in their most forward position on the frame?

Each shifter has its own bolt for tightening.

One other thing. Please move the quick-release lever on the rear wheel so that it's not pointing straight down like it is now. In that position it's possible for it to catch on something an open. I like mine to face towards the rear or to lie along the chainstay.

Would you post an image of the rear derailleur taken from t he back of the bike with the bike right side up and vertical? That way we could have a better idea as to whether your derailleur hanger is bent or not..

Cheers
Iím outside and took a photo.
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