79pmooney

From the disc brake thread"

Psimet, I wrapped up my racing in 1978. Ordered my Peter Mooney frame with Mafac cantis, bought a 178mmm TA triple. 53-42-28 and kept on using my training wheels. 13-19 5-speed FW. All my old racing gears and I could get up just about anything in a 28-19 (being 25 yo, a pure standing climber and very fit still). Loved the gears. As I got older and slowed down, I added cogs, keeping the core of that old FW. Now it's 12,14-19,21,23. I live in big enough hills that taking the limited use 13 off in exchange for the 12 for the many big descents works well. Only time I really missed the 13 was chasing a tandem out of the Blue Mountains of Oregon and getting dropped - the single bike wheel I was following fell back. But I got back on so all was good! (Shades of racing a million years ago and watching the race go up the road. And just as hard!)

Recently I moved my crankset down to 50-38-24, keeping the same cassette. (I also have 13, 14 outer cogs and 25, 28 large so that 9-speed cassette is very versatile but the 12-23 (or flat ground variation 13-23) is my true love. Triples make it work! I had some fun with math a while back and figured that until they develop a 17-speed cassette, I do better with what I've got than any 1X.

Now my knees do not like the common triple Q-factors so I am doing a little in house engineering and tinkering. I set the 50-38-24 up on an old Specialized 110/74 BCD and mounted that on a 108mm Phil Wood BB. Bought the chainline in to 41mm and the left crank to almost brushing the chainstay, Knees love it! Now I have to figure out how to get an FD to knock the chain off the middle chainring. (I'm all ears.) Craknkset is so close that I gouged the chainstay with the inner ring bolt heads, Ouch! Mentioned this to the builder, Dave Levy/TiCycles. His reply - next paint job, I'll cut out that area and weld in a dimple. No big deal. (I love ti!) And I can decide if I want to go with bigger tires while I am at it.

So I am almost there. The sweet (low Q) triple, Now if I could just get on that inner ring ... (Oh, seatstay is 31.8. Shifters DT friction Superbe. I was given an older Ultegra braze-on FD last night with the old flat plate outer cage face. (The crank is very close to the outer chainring.) I"m going to the coop today to get a seatpost clamp for it. It looks like the contact point for the inner limit screw could be milled back a touch and allow it to move further inboard.) Maybe there will be room and a way to move the clamp point inboard as well.

The driving force behind all this is to save my knees. I was told 40 years ago that I had to listen to them or it would be time to go with those 3rd party.jobs. They'er been telling me to get the Q-factors down (and are happier riding my fix gears and all the rest of my now Q-reduced bikes than my lightest, best ti geared bike with its triple! Shimano 105 Hollowtech. Q-factor galore.

Psimet and others, thanks in advance!

Ben

AnkleWork

Congratulations on that.

BCDrums

Ben, I am using a Shimano FD-CX70 to shift a 24-37-42 triple. I have a smaller jump from middle to big chainring, but this is a good derailleur. It is marketed as a double, but works well on the triple. You could look into it.

Like you, I am happy with a 3x9, and hope to make it to the finish line on a 9sp.

BTW, saw Peter Mooney this week. He's looking good for an old fart, like myself.

63rickert

There's no longer a triple in the house so measurement is from memory. The wife's 1975 Campy NR w/TA triplizer ring and an Athena spindle was right on 142mm. Which was narrower than some regular Campy doubles. It worked. I just got off my fixed wheel bike w/ Durax steel and 134mm. If you want real narrow it's all old stuff. Campy, TA, Stronglight 49D. Or Stronglight 49A works good too and is even narrower. My knees scream if modern cranks are attempted.

Bill Kapaun

Going to 165mm cranks eliminated a lot of knee pain vs longer ones.

79pmooney

Went to another shop yesterday with my seat tube. (I'd mounted a wood block center plane on it so I could easily toss FDs on and see where their cages really sat.) Picked up a no name SunTour that hits the center plane 2mm closer than the Shimano (center plane to inside of outer cage), Mounted it and got it to almost shift onto the inner ring. Wrapped the outer cage with sheet metal to effectively drop the distance about 1 1/2 mm. It now shifted slowly over about half the cassette.

My first go was with an SRAM FD and an 1/8" flatbar epoxied along the inside face. That shifted well. I"m thinking the SunTour should work even better with the same treatment. Trouble is that the epoxy bond broke the 2nd ride. Epoxying steel to chrome on a plate that flexes is asking a lot and it falling off didn't surprise me at all. A very flexible epoxy with really good adhesion might work. Brittle Marine Tex didn't. (Brain flash! 3M 5200 might work!)

Any ideas on the best way to bond 1/8" steel flatbar or plate to an FD outside cage plate - I"m all ears. (Could drill and tap. But that wouldn't have a lot of threads engaged and you might have to use a flat or oval head screw to clear the crank. Also pushing my abilities as a machinist.

dedhed

This or get someone to drop a few tack welds on it.

masi61

Just enjoying this thread. I have triple crank setups on multiple bikes and like them a lot. My go to road bike has a 3x9 with Ultegra 6603 front derailleur and crank. I like the matte finish on the Ultegra chrome FD cage over the smooth, shiny chrome of the Dura Ace cage. Maybe I’m imagining it, but that matte chrome seems to be a bit more tactile with a chain, improving my shifts.

Lots of SunTour FD’s shift odd triples better than average. If you need to overshift down to your granny and back up to your mid ring, can you live with that? Also, a “dog fang” can be helpful here since these chain catchers give you an insurance policy against dropping your chain internally. In my case, I got a $4 plastic dog fang and set the inner stop such that I can push my FD cage a bit further inboard for a more powerful downshift into my granny. Then I just have to pull the cage back a click or two on my SunTour Command front shifter.

Lastly, I don’t understand the obsession with low Q-factor. I ride spin bikes at the gym all the time with this super long axle with minimal issues. If need be, I might need to adjust my cleats to angle my heels in slightly for more comfort but this is more about my feet than my knees.

GrainBrain

Well if it's chromed steel, strip the chrome and braze it? For mechanical fastening you could do an 82° countersink on the plate and use a flat head screw, that would make it flush.


Or maybe it's time to consider a Shimano GRX group and 11-34 cassette? Some kind of 46-30 crank and 11-28 11 speed cassette?

ThermionicScott 

Signal boost to Psimet2001 since he doesn't spend as much time here anymore.

79pmooney

The SunTour I tried couldn't reach in far enough to knock the chain off the middle ring. That's my issue, I cannot get on tho the inner ring. The parallelogram of the SunTour hits the seat tube. (I have limited options since the seat tube is 31.8. I've for a box full of ARs and the like for older seattubes.)

masi61, I've had chrondomalcia patellae for the past 40 years. The doc that diagnosed me said that I had to listen to my knees; that when I don't follow their lead, I'll be getting replacements. My knees have been saying quite firmly that they do not like high Q-factors. (They feel better after fix gear rides than on this bike which used to have 105 Hollowtech and the standard splined Shimano BB. Except for the Q-factor, this is the sweetest climbing bike I've ever ridden. That my knees are telling me to stick to my fix gears says a lot!) I'm getting older. My knees are getting fussier. Also, outdoors, my knees are far colder much of the time even with lots of legwarmer than inside on a spin bike with no or not much airflow. In gas engine terms, warmth = lubrication, chrondomalacia and less than ideal tracking of my knees = pistons not aligned with the cylinders. Either is bad. Both far more so. My job is to do what I can for both. I wear super warm kneewarmers. I pay attention to all aspects of my knee's tracking. Bike position, cleat position (no-float and I am obsessive re: cleat angle). I pay attention to my knees' tracking. (My right tracks poorly and has ever since my head injury; getting wonkier as I tire.)

I've got a nice looking Ultegra FD I just picked up that mounts on a braze-on so that makes the 31.8 easy. It sometimes makes the shift on the stand but I know form long experience that unless amy FD shifts always and fast onto the inner ring on the stand, it will not reliably shift when I realize I need that ring and don't still have flat ground speed and ability to coast. (No, I do not coast, but that allows a near stand-like shift.)

Chain catcher is on. I always use them. But until I can get the chain off that middle ring, it's just there getting bored.

masi61? 61 cm Masi? I spent many hours with the 57 cm? Masi of my training partner 40 years ago. Fond memories.

Ben

masi61

Yes, my moniker stems from having a 1978 Masi Gran Criterium, size 61. I bought the frameset in 1979 as a 17 year old and built it up with cool parts and road raced it. It is parked and safe now and my regular road bikes are more in the compact 56 size range. I do have a size 57 Masi Gran Criterium that was bought cheap on eBay, a crash victim that is about to be ridden despite the crash....

Anyway, thanks Ben for responding to my reply to your original post. Sorry to hear that you Chondromalacia is so disabling. Is there any chance you could post a phot or two of your current crank, front derailleur, narrow Q bottom bracket assembly? Your dilemma with failure to be able to consistently be able to drop your chain from the big ring into the middle reminds me of the 53/46/32 custom triple I am working on. Did you say if you are able to over-shift into the granny and get it back up into the middle that way? Sorry if you already answered that.

Your interventions to keep yourself riding with severe Chondromalacia are interesting yet foreign to me. I’ve had some bad boughts of patellar tendinitis off and on in my life and I have resolved them fairly well but nowhere have I ever felt the need for a low q-factor, fixed cleats or fixed gear direction. Instead, in my hilly area I ride standard float (Shimano Yellow) cleats, standard or even wide width bottom brackets (whatever is required for good clearance with my crankset). I think I would hurt my knees if I tried to climb steep hills in a fixed gear. I try to climb as many steps as I can per day in order to maintain my quad strength. I also practice spinning constantly in both spin class and on the road, actively pursuing engagement of my hamstrings and subtly pulling up at the bottom of the pedal stroke.

Regards, & looking forward to seeing those pictures.

79pmooney

Big to middle is OK. Bike works just fine as a double. The inner is completely unreachable almost all the time with most of the derailleurs I've tried and with any "normal" setup, ie not rotating the FD so far that it is say 15 degrees off the chainline..

The fix gear isn't actually better on my knees climbing, especially if I have not worked up to those climbs slowly. But I feel the high Q in my knees all the time, not just hills. The fixed cleats are because I need to force my feet to beyond their natural toe-in for my knees and I have to do this with an outside force, not my muscles. Fixed cleats set to that toe-in is by far the easiest way to get there.

Basically I am just trying to make a money no object custom ti bike fit me right. (And yes, it has a lot of parts that were not expensive. Money no object means getting the fit and feel, not feeding my ego. For example, my hands like Nitto bars and Tektro levers. (I love DT friction and ratchet so ordinary aero levers with nice fit for my hands are sweet! Cranksets - the best are straight arned, narrow and low-Q. 175 $3-500 won't get you there. $70 and the willingness to live with 30 year old scratches will.) I"m not competing, How fast I go up the hill doesn't matter. Being able to climb comfortably all day does.

Ben

masi61

I think I read somewhere that the regular (double specific) Dura Ace 7700 front derailleur was capable of shifting a non-stock triple. It might be worth a try.

Another thought is to check and and see if braze-on specific front derailleurs might have a bit more cage clearance on the seat tube side.