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New tubeless "tire too tight" questions...

Old 03-26-20, 11:03 PM
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New tubeless "tire too tight" questions...

I was having an insanely hard time changing tubes on my new HED Ardennes Plus wheels. I figured out that I needed to slide the bead of the tire into the center channel to reduce the diameter and get a tire lever in. Still, it's still ridiculously hard to change a tube with these. I tried mounting some different tires yesterday (Vittoria Terrano) and it was so hard I gave up and ordered a Kool Stop tire jack.

I have a few new questions maybe you all can help with...

1. I'm using 24mm wide tape,a recommended by the Stan's box for 21mm internal width rims. Would it help to use narrower tape? I could use 21mm width.

2. I wrapped the rims 2 times around, again, per the box's instructions for road pressure tires. Maybe if it were wrapped just once it would be a little easier?
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Old 03-26-20, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by showlow View Post
1. I'm using 24mm wide tape,a recommended by the Stan's box for 21mm internal width rims. Would it help to use narrower tape? I could use 21mm width.

2. I wrapped the rims 2 times around, again, per the box's instructions for road pressure tires. Maybe if it were wrapped just once it would be a little easier?
1) No. Use the tape width should ideally go completly from edge to edge.

2) No. The double thickness is required to withstand the additional double pressure.

You don't need a bead jack.

The first bead is the easy part.

The second bead you are going to get all but the last 8 or 10 inches. Use 2 tire levers. Facing the work side, Lock 1 lever between the bead & the bead seat. Hold this lever with your knee while sitting in a chair. This will keep the progress you have already made.

Next, slide the second lever between the tire & the rim at the mid point & use the second lever to literally lever the bead over rim with one hand while keeping the non-lever locked bead from sliding back with firm pressure from the thumb on your free hand.

You should be finishing at the valve stem because you need every nth of leeway possible to get the bead over the rim.

I hope I explained it well.
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Old 03-26-20, 11:46 PM
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Additional:
You might inflate & set your bead before adding sealant. It should largely hold air on it's own for quite some time. No need to encourage a messy "burp" with hasty & hurried installation.

Once you are satisfied it holds air & the tire is mounted well, deflate, remove the valve core & inject ~60ml of sealant.

Reinstall valve core & inflate to minimum pressure listed on tire sidewall.

Bounce & spin. Bounce & spin. Bounce & spin.

Inflate to ride pressure & go for a ride.
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Old 03-27-20, 12:11 AM
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I've experimented a couple of times with road tubeless (and when I've MTBed it's straight tubeless period), and my advice would be to use an inner tube with your new tubeless tire for a few days or a week or so. Yeah, getting some tubeless tires on some rims can seem nearly impossible. I personally believe that if you can get it mounted the first time using an inner tube, not only will you not have the trouble of seating the bead, but the tire will stretch out a little bit over that week or so. Then you can go tubeless for real, and hopefully it's not quite as difficult to get it back on the second time.

The primary reason I'm not still doing road tubeless at the moment was that where I live it's so hot that the sealant would dry up inside the tire so quickly I had to keep adding more sealant every month or so just to make sure I had enough inside that's still liquid that it would actually function, and then when I finally took the tire off and had to clean out the dried or partly dried goop that was left over, it was a nightmare. I've done that twice, and it was enough for me for now. Maybe I'll try again one of these days. It sure did feel nice while riding. Another reason is just those "what if?" scenarios where you're on the road and get a puncture in your tubeless that's large enough that it won't seal with sealant alone. That's ok, though, because you've got a spare inner tube in your saddle bag for just this eventually, right? Then you remember how hard it was to get that tire on and off the rim in the first place, and just pull your phone out and call your spouse, significant other, or an Uber to come pick you up. Any tire that's that hard to get onto a rim is going to be even harder when you're trying to do it on the side of the road someplace under a blazing sun instead of in your garage.
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Old 03-27-20, 01:08 AM
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I double wrap each wheel but only leave it single by the valve stem so it doesnít interfere with getting the valve seated properly. You do this by starting the wrap about an inch from the valve hole, on your second pass stop one inch on the opposite side of the valve hole. This provides a double wrap all around the wheel while leaving the valve hole single.

As far as getting a tight tire on the rim. Get one bead on and as much as the second bead as you can. This leaves about 8 inches or so left (as mentioned above). Now pull the tire on each side of the wheel toward the 8 inches of bead that has yet to be seated. Work from the opposite end of the wheel where both beads are on. Itís hard to explain without seeing it, but what you are doing is pulling the slack from the portion that is on the rim toward the 8 inches of bead which provides more slack where you need it to get the bead on. It helps if you soap up the bead before mounting.
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Old 03-27-20, 01:45 AM
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To the OP, yes it has been my experience as well with tubeless rims. Super difficult to mount tires with or without tubes. Are you running tubes or going tubeless? Going with 21mm tape should improve things a bit, but it's recommended to stick to double layers if you're going tubeless.
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Old 03-27-20, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by SethAZ View Post
I've experimented a couple of times with road tubeless (and when I've MTBed it's straight tubeless period), and my advice would be to use an inner tube with your new tubeless tire for a few days or a week or so. Yeah, getting some tubeless tires on some rims can seem nearly impossible. I personally believe that if you can get it mounted the first time using an inner tube, not only will you not have the trouble of seating the bead, but the tire will stretch out a little bit over that week or so. Then you can go tubeless for real, and hopefully it's not quite as difficult to get it back on the second time.
When a tire is difficult to put on the rim, you are much more likely to damage the tube with a tire lever.
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Old 03-27-20, 08:50 AM
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Some misunderstandings with the replies. I wasn't clear--I'm using tubes for the moment. Not sure about tubeless yet. It's just that the wheels and tires are tubeless (HED Ardennes Plus and Vittoria Terrano Dry TNT).

In any case, there seems to be a concensus that I need a double wrap of 24mm tape. So I'll leave that.

PS - regarding just levering the tire on. Yes, I've managed to do that a half dozen times with the Contis I've been using. But when I tried with the Vittorias I got one on, and then the second one broke my Pedro's lever, which has never happened to me before. I can set any ordinary tire with no levers at all. I'm going to go at it with the Kool Stop jack this morning, but I really don't want to have do deal with a flat on the road.

PPS - I also have experienced the "stretch" that seems to happen after you've mounted them once and ridden them.

Last edited by showlow; 03-27-20 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 03-27-20, 08:53 AM
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24mm tape is too wide for 21mm internal width IMO.
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Old 03-27-20, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by alo View Post
When a tire is difficult to put on the rim, you are much more likely to damage the tube with a tire lever.
Yeah, which is why I'm always extremely careful in doing it. My point in advocating for the inner tube for the first week or so was that I believe it will loosen up the new tire a little bit, which will make subsequent removals and seating the bead and such a little easier. I've had several experiences with seating the bead on a road tubeless that were absolute nightmares, so I ended up buying one of those little tanks that you can pump up with air and then it releases it incredibly rapidly, specifically for popping that bead in.

My MTB tubeless, in contrast, have always been a piece of cake in comparison. I've got no problems using tubeless on MTB, but the problem is a lot easier there because of the vastly lower pressures. Road tubeless, while it feels great on the road, has simply been too big a PITA for me, and I'm off it currently. Maybe I'll try it again in the near future, maybe not. We'll see.
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Old 03-27-20, 03:04 PM
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Guys... Even with two Pedro's levers on either side of the bead, and a Kool Stop tire jack, I cannot get the last side of the bead in. I even had my wife do the jacking and I held two tire levers on either side of the bead, she couldn't, with both hands, pull the bead over the rim. The KS jack just popped off.

I *HATE* this new fangled s**t, guys. These wheels were expensive and I hate them. I'd rather go ride my Surly with 14 year old hand built wheels.

I'm sure this would be 100x easier with big, floppy mountain bike tires, and would make sense, but this road tubeless is straight bulls**t.
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Old 03-27-20, 03:16 PM
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Bead jack. Vittoria gravel tires fit quite snug when new. They require good tire mounting technique, and tape appropriate to your wheel width. I've been riding the zeros and Drys for a year.
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Old 03-27-20, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Bead jack. Vittoria gravel tires fit quite snug when new. They require good tire mounting technique, and tape appropriate to your wheel width. I've been riding the zeros and Drys for a year.
I want to ride these so bad, but look at my last post. With two levers AND a jack AND an extra set of hands I couldn't get them on.

PS- I've been getting my Conti 5ks back on w/o a whole lot of trouble.

​​​​I have never, in all my time cycling, given up on a tire before now.

Last edited by showlow; 03-27-20 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 03-27-20, 04:21 PM
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It's only the side you are putting on that you want down in the spoke channel. I used to just pinch both beads together and that did help, but when I learned to only push the side I trying to get on into the channel, it was like the clouds parted and it was sunny forever more. I haven't used a lever to put tires on in quite a few years. I admit though that some tires might be more difficult, but I haven't found them lately.

And of course you've double checked the BSD of the rim, new tire and old tire......... right?
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Old 03-27-20, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
It's only the side you are putting on that you want down in the spoke channel. I used to just pinch both beads together and that did help, but when I learned to only push the side I trying to get on into the channel, it was like the clouds parted and it was sunny forever more. I haven't used a lever to put tires on in quite a few years. I admit though that some tires might be more difficult, but I haven't found them lately.

And of course you've double checked the BSD of the rim, new tire and old tire......... right?
Hi... So, what you're saying is that after you get one side on you pop that side up onto the shelf, and then do the next side?

I don't know what you mean by BSD.

Appreciate the help. I really want to ride these tires.
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Old 03-27-20, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by showlow View Post
I don't know what you mean by BSD.
This will be a good start. There is a BSD topic, but be sure to read the Dishonesty in Sizing part above it.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html
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Old 03-27-20, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
This will be a good start. There is a BSD topic, but be sure to read the Dishonesty in Sizing part above it.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html
I looked up what you mean. Yeah... They're the same BSD.
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Old 03-27-20, 08:58 PM
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I could be wrong but, if you are running tubes, there is no need to have wide tape or a need to have two layers. The tires are tubeless specific so, the tires combined with.all that bulk is making a tight fit.

You could attempt to mount and seat the tire tubeless so the tire will stretch. Once stretched, unseat only one side of tire, put the tube in and reseat. (this does mean you will have to have tubeless valve.stems).
​​​​​​
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Old 03-28-20, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Planemaker View Post
I could be wrong but, if you are running tubes, there is no need to have wide tape or a need to have two layers. The tires are tubeless specific so, the tires combined with.all that bulk is making a tight fit.

You could attempt to mount and seat the tire tubeless so the tire will stretch. Once stretched, unseat only one side of tire, put the tube in and reseat. (this does mean you will have to have tubeless valve.stems).
​​​​​​
That's a good idea. I may try that. I hate giving up on these. No tire has ever bested me before.
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Old 03-28-20, 02:17 PM
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Maybe you should bight the bullet and go tubeless. The cross section at HED's website looks like they won't like a new tight fitting tire. Especially if a tube is trying to get in the way.

You didn't get super thick puncture proof tubes did you?
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Old 03-28-20, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Maybe you should bight the bullet and go tubeless. The cross section at HED's website looks like they won't like a new tight fitting tire. Especially if a tube is trying to get in the way.

You didn't get super thick puncture proof tubes did you?
Yeah... Then I'd need to get the valve and the sealant. Then I'd have the fun of trying to put a tube in the sealant filled tire if (when?) it fails on the road. I have no issue with using tubes--none. In fact, I still have a giant stack of maybe 15 or so of them from when Performance Bike closed up. Maybe tubeless on a mountain bike, where tires are way easier to change, and lower pressures are desirable. But this is a wide tire road bike. They are knobby 31c.

I dunno. Maybe.

PS - No, it's a normal tube. Also, again, I've been getting my Contis on and off. Still way more hassle than it is with normal, non-tubeless rims, but doable.
​​​​​

Last edited by showlow; 03-28-20 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 03-28-20, 03:13 PM
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not laughing here, I;m serious

I appreciate your work and thank you for posting the whole process. You have helped me to decide to stick with old school and not convert my "tubeless ready" Canyon. High tech is not the answer to everything.
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Old 03-28-20, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by grayEZrider View Post
I appreciate your work and thank you for posting the whole process. You have helped me to decide to stick with old school and not convert my "tubeless ready" Canyon. High tech is not the answer to everything.
Take it from me. DON'T. The internet is full of people with the same problems I am having. I've never had this much trouble with any tire on any bike I've ever had. Go back in my thread and you'll see that even with two levers, a Kool Stop jack, and an extra pair of hands, I couldn't get the bead on.

Tubes are fine for road bikes.
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Old 03-28-20, 04:48 PM
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I agree that tubes are fine for road bikes. However you got a tubeless ready rim. And isn't the Vittoria Terrano a tubeless tire? As more and more people go tubeless, and the technology gets more and more refined, there are subtle and not so subtle differences in both rim and tire. On the tire side it can be a thicker tire that doesn't leave as much room for the tube.

Just like disc brakes, the mfr's seem to be jumping on the tubeless road bike tire craze and I've found my choices of tires intended for use with inner tubes slightly less than previous years. I gave in a went disc since new bikes with rim brakes were hard to find with higher end components or just not made by some mfr's. I expect I will have to go tubeless one day too.
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Old 03-28-20, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I agree that tubes are fine for road bikes. However you got a tubeless ready rim. And isn't the Vittoria Terrano a tubeless tire? As more and more people go tubeless, and the technology gets more and more refined, there are subtle and not so subtle differences in both rim and tire. On the tire side it can be a thicker tire that doesn't leave as much room for the tube.

Just like disc brakes, the mfr's seem to be jumping on the tubeless road bike tire craze and I've found my choices of tires intended for use with inner tubes slightly less than previous years. I gave in a went disc since new bikes with rim brakes were hard to find with higher end components or just not made by some mfr's. I expect I will have to go tubeless one day too.
This... It's the planned obsolescence that bugs me most. The cliche "solution in search of a problem" seems really accurate here with tubeless. I can definitely see the benefit for mountain biking, but on the road, there doesn't seem to be any upside and they are a huge PITA to deal with. I didn't pick these wheels because they were tubeless. I bought them because they were disc brake thru axles and matched my frame. Had I known I would have had a set custom built with some nice, normal, H Plus Son rims or something.

My wife was commuting the other morning and had a perfect anecdote. She was riding along on her late 1990s Lemond with 25c Schwalbe Marathons. Another commuter rode up in front of her and rolled through some thorny tree trimmings in the bike lane. His tire started hissing and shooting sealant everywhere. It got all over his bike and pants. She stopped to see if he was ok and ask why his bike was spraying goo. He explained he had "tubeless". She hadn't heard of it.

PS - Another thing is, I sort of refuse to take it to a shop to get help. First, I built this bike on my own and every bike I own, and I shouldn't need help. But also, I feel like it's uncool to bring a bunch of stuff I bought online into a local shop and be asking for help with it. I got myself into the mess, so I should be able to get out of it on my own.

Last edited by showlow; 03-28-20 at 05:52 PM.
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