BeardyMan

Hi,

Before I begin my post, I just want to mention that I have used Sheldon Brown's guide on how to replace my square tapered cotterless bottom bracket and have managed to remove the crank arm and the crank with gears. An ebay user recommended that I replace the entire assembly so as not to mix technologies. I have an Apollo frame, not sure which model (though I'm sure that is not required for this post). The original BB was a 3P, the new BB is a 3SS which is supplemented with the corresponding cranks.

I need to know:

a) which tool I need to remove the right 'cup',
b) which tool I need to fit the new cups,
c) which side the new cups need to go on, and
d) understand what grease I should use (including how much and where).

i.ibb.co/jvq0q2P/IMG-4163.jpg Right side cup - size
i.ibb.co/tHc7ykr/IMG-4164.jpg Right side cup
i.ibb.co/7pH9B6H/IMG-4165.jpg Right side cup, thickness
i.ibb.co/dPKjPhT/IMG-4168.jpg New cups - which one is right and which one is left?

Note to admin: I tried to upload pictures as attachments but it gave me a warning about not posting URLs as I have less than 10 posts (no idea why as I was not using any URLs). I had no choice but to put URLs as the attachment functionality seemed to have a bug.

Andrew R Stewart 

By the 3P reference I assume your current BB is a loose ball, cup and cone, adjustable type with a threaded BB shell (and likely an Eng or ISO thread designation). Can you confirm?

A- The fixed cup (the RH) might use one of a few different removal tools. Your old cup likely fits a 36mm closed end tool, like the Park HCW-4. A simple measurement across the flats will tell you the tool size. Whichever tool is correct the challenge is to keep the tool firmly clamped to the cup so to not slip off during the sometimes massive amount of force needed to loosen a "fixed" cup. Running an all thread shaft with large washers and nuts through the shell and cup is a cheap tool "vice". If the threading is Eng ot ISO the removal direction is a left hand thread, or clockwise (note I don't use the stupid reference of righty loosey).

B-The correct tool for reinstalling is whatever the replacement cups "call for". In your case that's a HCW-4 and HCW-11 with a lock ring hook tool like a HCW-5.

C-The fixed flange cup goes in the frame's RH side and is likely a left hand thread. The cup with the removable lock ring is likely a right handed thread and belongs on the frame's left side.

D- common auto wheel bearing grease is fine. There are "specific" (more about marketing and distribution channels then formulation) greases available and they, too, work fine. For severe conditions a "marine grade" grease might be preferred. But know any grease will collect contaminates. age and get washed out over time with exposure to water. Like the question of which body soap is best it's more about using some kind of soap before you smell then which brand.

added notes- Do apply grease to the insides of the BB shell and the threads of the cups. Do look at the cup's threading and discover the likely different directions the threads wind around the cup with. If in doubt compare to a screw based light bulb, they are almost always a right hand thread. Really tighten down the RH/fixed cup tight. Lots of upper arm and shoulder effort. After loosely installing the left side cup and lock ring attach the right side crank arm and use the arm's end as a lever and pendulum to better judge the final bearing adjustment. The goal is no wiggle at the arm's end (when it and the chain stay are clasped in your hand and pulled/pushed apart and together) as well as a freely swinging arm as it settles into the bottom of it's swing, like a pendulum. For more help consider going to the Park Blue Book. Andy

_ForceD_

Beards -- I cut-n-pasted the links you provided to look at all your pictures. Before you install that new BB...realize that style is an 'old school' model. Which is completely functional, and works fine when installed and adjusted properly. But, there are newer models that are sealed, maintenance-free cassettes. And IMO, I think they're longer lasting. Cost a bit more...but worth it IMO. I don't know how much you ride...but if you can return/exchange and get a cassette BB...give that some consideration.


For what you have...to remove the right cup you'll need a 36mm (+/-) wrench. The flat areas on either side are where you apply the wrench. For the left side, you'll need a spanner wrench to remove the outer ring, and something like pin spanner wrench for the cup.
Below are a couple of pics of my own combination wrenches. Long ago before I purchased them...I would use things like needle-nose pliers spread out to remove them. Of course, if you decide on the BB cassette...completely different tools will be required. And before you remove anything...make sure you know what the threading setup is for your specific frame the two sides can have either left handed or right handed threads. You can determine that by looking at the replacement part you have (providing they are in face the correct parts). As far as grease...any axle/bearing grease is fine. You can't really use too much. Better too much than not enough. Good luck.





FYI to others...this is the pic of his replacement parts which are the exact same style as what he pictured that are currently on the bike.





Dan

Bill Kapaun

Here's a tool I made up with scrap parts. A LARGE steel washer could suffice for my wooden one. I njust used what I had handy.

Buzzkill53120

Andrew R Stewart Not to hijack the thread, can you explain why you don't want to grease the bottom bracket threads?

Bill Kapaun

Since Andy said the exact opposite, what are you trying to do?

Buzzkill53120

Sorry. I don't know why I read it wrong. Guess I gotta get new glasses.

BeardyMan

Thanks for replying Dan. I'll start with this reply as you ask a very important question here about changing to a BB cassette. I really wanted to get these but I wasn't sure if that was possible. How would I know which BB cassette to go for (i.e. is there any guidance where to measure from)? I hope no modifications would be required otherwise that would probably put it outside of my skillset. I don't use the MTB a lot, I've done a few forest rides and use it mainly for towing a children's trailer. I just want to get going without having to fork out too much

Would you still recommend a BB cassette in light of the above? If so, can you help me identify the right size/make as well as tools?

Bill Kapaun

A symmetrical cartridge (not cassette) BB for a 3P is a 122mm.
A 3S will have the DS 2.5mm longer than a 3P. (127mm)
A 3S will work if your FDER has that much (2.5mm) more outward travel.

Scroll down just a bit to the spindle chart-
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html

BeardyMan

That is a lot of useful information, and a lot to take in at the same time I'll break down your response to make it easier for us both to follow.

Apologies, I should have put more information about the existing setup. Yes, I have the following (don't know if I have a cone):

i.ibb.co/cy0ZzNR/IMG-3901.jpg - cotterless BB showing sizes
i.ibb.co/pQjD2VC/IMG-3905.jpg - image of the inside of the LH cup
i.ibb.co/2ySb5S1/IMG-3920.jpg - alternative view of the BB
i.ibb.co/Gfw30Qd/IMG-3921.jpg - the ring that attaches to the LH cup
i.ibb.co/N1Q29NC/IMG-3922.jpg - view of the frame where the LH cup screws in
i.ibb.co/JKGK6x5/IMG-3923.jpg - other side of the LH cup
i.ibb.co/tKLP4yV/IMG-3941.jpg - square hole of crank that is now rounded

The LH cone screws in clockwise (never heard righty loosey before!). Thanks for letting me know what the correct names are for the tools. Will make life a lot easier to find these now. I won't know which way the RH cup is threaded until I begin to try and remove it. I assume by the washer comment that you mean something to rest the tool against like what Bill had put in his post with the wooden 'washer'?

You lost me on this bit. I know that when I fit the LH crank, I should have the RH crank point down, and install the LH crank poited upwards. Are you saying that I should not install the right crank right away and look for any play in the arm once loosely tightened as well as ensure that it's free enough to drop down under the force of gravity?

cyccommute 

BeardyMan: I’ll add to Bill Kapaun’s method that you should remove the fixed cup side first before tearing the bottom bracket apart. This post details how and why.

Well, it’s not a “cassette” but a cartridge bearing...minor quibble.

Your bike likely has an “English” bottom bracket since the vast majority are. It’s dimension are 1.370" x 24 TPI (TPI=threads per inch). Measure the width of your cup and see if it is 1 3/8” or 34.8mm. It probably is. You’ll also need to measure the width of the bottom bracket shell...the place where the bearing cups go. It will either be 68mm or 73mm and most likely 68mm. Next measure the length of the spindle that you are currently using. Order a new cartridge bearing bottom bracket with the proper threading, width and length of the spindle. While you are at it, order the proper tool for installing the bottom bracket.

The rest is just details.

BeardyMan

really liking the ingenuity with the wooden washer. Is there anything official that should be used?

Bill Kapaun

I guess "official" would be to not use anything to retain the wrench, since I've never seen BB wrench retainers in any tool catalogs.

_ForceD_

Sorry. I inadvertantly used "cassette" above when what I actually meant was 'cartridge.' Sorry for the confusion.

Dan

cyccommute 

Stein Tools. If I still had lots of loose bearing bottom brackets, I’d buy one but my system (and yours) is cheaper and it works.

Bill Kapaun

Agree. I'd rather spend $45 on a tool(s) I can't make and need more. Or simply isn't cost effective now matter how cheap my retired time is.
I won't begrudge anybody that can spend the $ on a tool though.

Andrew R Stewart 

Except the Stein fixed cup tools, a godsend for the shop mechanic's knuckles Andy

I should have read more replies. Stuart beat me to this. I have two of these, slightly different versions and the pictured is still another version.

Andrew R Stewart 

No, Install the right side crank arm before doing the final BB bearing adjustment. After the adjustment then install the LH arm. If the LH arm is attached before the adjustrment is often gets in the way of accessing the LH cup and lock ring. Additionally to feel the fine preload of the BB bearings it helps to add leverage and a hanging weight to the Bb axle, the attached RH arm serves as both. Andy

Bill Kapaun

Noted. I need to look beyond the Park catalog.

BeardyMan

The parts that I've been provided are: a longer BB (3SS) along with the corresponding cranks. Now as this BB is longer than my original one (3P), does this have an impact on the position of my chain and deralieur? I recall seeing "Chainline Measurement" on the Sheldon Brown guide and am concerned that this will cause more work (and grief).

Should I return what I have and go for the original size and corresponding cranks from another seller?

Iride01 

If it is installed with crank and chain wheels, then site down the side of the chain wheels and see where they hit on the cassette. Or if you have a straight edge long enough, narrow enough and rigid enough use it.

If they are significantly to the bigger or smaller cogs, then you might want consider something else. The further you are away from center of the cassette, the more issues you'll have with the angle of the chain and noise. Or in other words, cross chaining which seems to scare so many people.

Bill Kapaun

A 3S is 2.5mm longer than a 3P on 1 end only.
IF the FDER will move the additional 2.5mm away from the ST, you're good. Not sure what you mean by "corresponding" cranks?
If designed for a 3S, the chain rings will be in approx. the correct place. If for a 3P, they'll be 2.5mm further out.