Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Special Tool French Cotter Crank Removal?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Special Tool French Cotter Crank Removal?

Old 05-04-20, 12:51 PM
  #1  
NMRoller
Member
Thread Starter
 
NMRoller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Central New Mexico
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Special Tool French Cotter Crank Removal?

Removing the crank from one old Gitane to put on another. I have already removed the cotter crank arms (yeah, victory!) Now I need to remove the mechanism from the bottom bracket. Do I need a special crank pulling tool for this job? It appears the outer ring has a tab holding it in place so I can just back out the center ring.

Thanks in advance!


NMRoller is offline  
Old 05-04-20, 02:17 PM
  #2  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 11,972

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1105 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 227 Posts
Loosen the lock nut and it will come apart on the NDS.
Fixed cup takes more effort.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Likes For Bill Kapaun:
Old 05-04-20, 02:24 PM
  #3  
desconhecido 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,781
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 395 Post(s)
Liked 118 Times in 93 Posts
The proper tool for removing the adjustable cup (lh side) is a hook spanner such as the Sugino BB tool. There is a Park tool that might be the same functional thing and they're cheaper. I've never used a Park.

So, you use the hook spanner to remove the ring and then the adjustable cup should be easy to unscrew, maybe by hand. If you don't care about the old BB, you could use a hammer and punch to remove the ring. On the left, both the ring and cup are normal rh thread.

Then, you've got the fixed cup on the RHS which, being a French bike, is probably rh thread also.Depending on design, you may need an odd tool to remove it. Or, you might be able to unscrew it by clamping the fixed cup in a bench vise with good jaws. Rotate the bike to unscrew. Or, you could try the famous Sheldon Brown removal method. Many people have luck with that.

Curious, what BB and crank are you going to install?
desconhecido is offline  
Likes For desconhecido:
Old 05-04-20, 04:30 PM
  #4  
NMRoller
Member
Thread Starter
 
NMRoller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Central New Mexico
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Loosen the lock nut and it will come apart on the NDS.
Fixed cup takes more effort.
Thanks Bill! Exactly as you say. Lock nut came free easily enough. Now to the fixed cup...saw a Sheldon Brown trick.
NMRoller is offline  
Old 05-04-20, 04:39 PM
  #5  
NMRoller
Member
Thread Starter
 
NMRoller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Central New Mexico
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
The proper tool for removing the adjustable cup (lh side) is a hook spanner such as the Sugino BB tool. There is a Park tool that might be the same functional thing and they're cheaper. I've never used a Park.

So, you use the hook spanner to remove the ring and then the adjustable cup should be easy to unscrew, maybe by hand. If you don't care about the old BB, you could use a hammer and punch to remove the ring. On the left, both the ring and cup are normal rh thread.

Then, you've got the fixed cup on the RHS which, being a French bike, is probably rh thread also.Depending on design, you may need an odd tool to remove it. Or, you might be able to unscrew it by clamping the fixed cup in a bench vise with good jaws. Rotate the bike to unscrew. Or, you could try the famous Sheldon Brown removal method. Many people have luck with that.

Curious, what BB and crank are you going to install?
Thanks! My apologies for not being clear. I am removing parts from one Gitane and putting them on another to make a complete and rideable bike. So, just re-using it.

Don't have a hook spanner handy. So, I gently used a chain wrench that I did have on the adjustable side. Need the hook spanner to put it back on and have inquired with Park as to which one I need.

Having trouble with the fixed cup. Going to try the Sheldon Brown trick.
NMRoller is offline  
Old 05-04-20, 04:40 PM
  #6  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 11,972

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1105 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 227 Posts
Will Sheldon's method destroy the cup/
Here's what I do-


Bill Kapaun is offline  
Likes For Bill Kapaun:
Old 05-04-20, 05:53 PM
  #7  
desconhecido 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,781
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 395 Post(s)
Liked 118 Times in 93 Posts
Originally Posted by NMRoller View Post
Thanks! My apologies for not being clear. I am removing parts from one Gitane and putting them on another to make a complete and rideable bike. So, just re-using it.

Don't have a hook spanner handy. So, I gently used a chain wrench that I did have on the adjustable side. Need the hook spanner to put it back on and have inquired with Park as to which one I need.

Having trouble with the fixed cup. Going to try the Sheldon Brown trick.
The key to the Sheldon method is that the torque which tightens the bolt and nut inserted into the cup is in the same direction as the torque needed to unscrew the cup. So, with LHT you tighten from the right side but if the cup is RHT, like a French BB should be, you tighten from the inside with a socket, short extension, and a ratchet or flex handle. Of course, I'm assuming that the right cup is French threaded and not Swiss. I've no personal experience with French bikes and bottom brackets for cottered cranks. Perhaps if you can id the maker of the BB, someone will be able to tell from experience whether Swiss threading is even a possibility. The spindle may be branded.

If you post a picture of the fixed cup, someone may be able to tell if there is a tool available for removal -- perhaps the tool pictured in the suggestion above if the cup is the flattened ellipse shape. Here's an Ebay ad for the Sugino tool that I've used for a long time. It may be the shape you need for your fixed cup as well as the hook spanner. Good suggestion above for a way to make sure the tool gets a good grip on the fixed cup.
desconhecido is offline  
Likes For desconhecido:
Old 05-04-20, 09:03 PM
  #8  
NMRoller
Member
Thread Starter
 
NMRoller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Central New Mexico
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Will Sheldon's method destroy the cup/
Here's what I do-


Thanks Bill!
NMRoller is offline  
Old 05-04-20, 09:09 PM
  #9  
NMRoller
Member
Thread Starter
 
NMRoller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Central New Mexico
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
The key to the Sheldon method is that the torque which tightens the bolt and nut inserted into the cup is in the same direction as the torque needed to unscrew the cup. So, with LHT you tighten from the right side but if the cup is RHT, like a French BB should be, you tighten from the inside with a socket, short extension, and a ratchet or flex handle. Of course, I'm assuming that the right cup is French threaded and not Swiss. I've no personal experience with French bikes and bottom brackets for cottered cranks. Perhaps if you can id the maker of the BB, someone will be able to tell from experience whether Swiss threading is even a possibility. The spindle may be branded.

If you post a picture of the fixed cup, someone may be able to tell if there is a tool available for removal -- perhaps the tool pictured in the suggestion above if the cup is the flattened ellipse shape. Here's an Ebay ad for the Sugino tool that I've used for a long time. It may be the shape you need for your fixed cup as well as the hook spanner. Good suggestion above for a way to make sure the tool gets a good grip on the fixed cup.
Thanks! First step is to pull out the Simple Green and clean it up. Then I am going to soak it in Liquid Wrench. That'll give me enough time to put together a bolt. Based on the year (early `70s Gitane) and that the adjustable side was RHT, I'm presuming that the drive side is also RHT. I plan to go slow. I'll post a pic once she's cleaned up.

Thanks also for the eBay link. Always need more useful tools.
NMRoller is offline  
Old 05-04-20, 09:27 PM
  #10  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 11,972

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1105 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 227 Posts
Originally Posted by NMRoller View Post
......... I'm presuming that the drive side is also RHT. I plan to go slow. I'll post a pic once she's cleaned up......
You can probably look through the NDS side and see enough threads.
I lean the bike on its side, fixed cup down
Squirt PO into the shell a few threads above the cup and let it run down into the threads. The upper shell/cup thread will act like a little reservoir. Just a few drops and let it run into the "reservoir".
Repeat multiple times as it works down the threads. Between TV commercials seems to work. Several hours.
If you get it dripping out the bottom, that's good, since there is only 1 thread. I actually use a small hypo just to keep the quantity applied small and not running all over.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Likes For Bill Kapaun:
Old 05-04-20, 09:46 PM
  #11  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,924

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 259 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18675 Post(s)
Liked 2,204 Times in 1,621 Posts
Originally Posted by NMRoller View Post
Thanks! My apologies for not being clear. I am removing parts from one Gitane and putting them on another to make a complete and rideable bike. So, just re-using it.

Don't have a hook spanner handy. So, I gently used a chain wrench that I did have on the adjustable side. Need the hook spanner to put it back on and have inquired with Park as to which one I need.

Having trouble with the fixed cup. Going to try the Sheldon Brown trick.
....I have never gotten that Sheldon homemade tool to work on a French or Italian (RH threaded cup). They are installed originally with high torque because otherwise they will back out in use. If you are just robbing parts from a frame you don't plan on reusing, the best way by far to extract an old RH threaded fixed cup that has been in place many years is with a lot of heat, using a propane or MAPP gas torch. (Or any welding torch, if you happen to have one set up).

Good luck, but as stated above somewhere, that bolt/nut/washers kludge can in many instances damage the fixed cup you are trying to re-use.

You can use it to hold the cup wrench in place, as pictured also above. That gives you a better shot at success. This topic comes up a lot on BF, so there are a lot of other threads on it. But if there's no concerns about the paint on the old frame you're stripping, a lot of heat is the way to go.

Lock ring pliers are way better than a hook spanner, but they cost more. If you're only doing one of these, it's probably not worth the investment.
3alarmer is online now  
Likes For 3alarmer:
Old 05-04-20, 09:49 PM
  #12  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,924

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 259 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18675 Post(s)
Liked 2,204 Times in 1,621 Posts
3alarmer is online now  
Likes For 3alarmer:
Old 05-05-20, 08:50 AM
  #13  
NMRoller
Member
Thread Starter
 
NMRoller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Central New Mexico
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
Thanks! Always in the market for useful tools. There are some jobs that a chain wrench is just too heavy handed for.

Last edited by NMRoller; 05-05-20 at 08:52 AM. Reason: grammer
NMRoller is offline  
Old 05-05-20, 11:06 AM
  #14  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 21,756

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 126 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2260 Post(s)
Liked 658 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
Lock ring pliers are way better than a hook spanner, but they cost more. If you're only doing one of these, it's probably not worth the investment.

Functionally equivalent, at a fraction of the cost:


https://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Lockring-Pliers/
JohnDThompson is offline  
Likes For JohnDThompson:
Old 05-05-20, 01:32 PM
  #15  
NMRoller
Member
Thread Starter
 
NMRoller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Central New Mexico
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you, thank you, thank you for all the encouragement and great advice. With a lot of soaking (Thanks Bill) while rotating the frame on the bike stand, application of heat from the wife's embossing gun (Thanks Michael), it easily rotated off with a large wrench and a little bow grease.

Now, the trick will be to install it with enough torque so it doesn't come off while isolated on some lonely, gravel road. Gonna need a torque wrench bigger than I have. Perhaps snugging it up and let the drive side crank do the rest?
NMRoller is offline  
Old 05-05-20, 03:33 PM
  #16  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 11,972

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1105 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 227 Posts
Originally Posted by NMRoller View Post
.....Perhaps snugging it up and let the drive side crank do the rest?
Nope. Basically the balls are turning backwards which tends to loosen the cup. Precession?
You can use my removal tool set up to install. You just don't need the 4 lb. hammer.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 05-05-20, 10:02 PM
  #17  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,924

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 259 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18675 Post(s)
Liked 2,204 Times in 1,621 Posts
Originally Posted by NMRoller View Post

Now, the trick will be to install it with enough torque so it doesn't come off while isolated on some lonely, gravel road. Gonna need a torque wrench bigger than I have. Perhaps snugging it up and let the drive side crank do the rest?
...I have one of those Hozan fixed cup tools, and I still don't trust that it's torqued tightly enough with that (although it probably is).
So at this point I never install a RH threaded fixed cup (French or Italian) without using blue Loctite on the threads. The ones I install are gonna be someone else's removal problem anyway.

3alarmer is online now  
Old 05-06-20, 01:10 PM
  #18  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,527
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 661 Post(s)
Liked 139 Times in 93 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...I have one of those Hozan fixed cup tools, and I still don't trust that it's torqued tightly enough with that (although it probably is).
So at this point I never install a RH threaded fixed cup (French or Italian) without using blue Loctite on the threads. The ones I install are gonna be someone else's removal problem anyway.

In that case you may as well use red loctite and then you really wont have to worry about it coming loose. Plus you can have a giggle just thinking about the poor schmuck that will be dealing with it in 30 or 40 years.
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Likes For Dan Burkhart:
Old 05-06-20, 05:09 PM
  #19  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,924

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 259 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18675 Post(s)
Liked 2,204 Times in 1,621 Posts
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
In that case you may as well use red loctite and then you really wont have to worry about it coming loose. Plus you can have a giggle just thinking about the poor schmuck that will be dealing with it in 30 or 40 years.
...I find myself chuckling to myself a lot these days. All my old bikes will probably get hauled off to the dump anyway. My wife promises me that at least once monthly.
3alarmer is online now  
Likes For 3alarmer:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.