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Track Crankset bottoms out

Old 07-20-20, 01:50 PM
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EamonPVD
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Track Crankset bottoms out

Hi! I have a Casati track bike with a bb shell width of 70mm (or a hair under) and a superbe pro bb spindle length being 109mm. I have a sugino crankset rd2d (something like that). Anyway when i try to bolt it on, it bottoms out very quickly against the bb cups. Do these cranks come in different widths? Do i just need a longer spindle? 70mm seems like an odd bb shell width to me but maybe I am just missing something?

any ideas? Ive tried both ends of the bb spindle.
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Old 07-20-20, 02:02 PM
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70mm says Italian
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Old 07-20-20, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
70mm says Italian
ok cool. Makes sense being a casati. Should i ditch the suntour bb?
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Old 07-20-20, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by EamonPVD View Post
ok cool. Makes sense being a casati. Should i ditch the suntour bb?
or perhaps this means the bb is iso and the crank is JIS?
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Old 07-20-20, 02:21 PM
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I don't have the answer but my first thought was JIS or ISO? (The tapers on the spindle and crank arms.) ISO is the European/Campagnolo standard, JIS is the Japanese standard. Sugino is JIS except their high end racing cranksets (Mighty, Sugino 75 and probably one or two others) which were made ISO to be interchangeable with Campagnolo. SunTour Superbe started as ISO and fully interchangeable with both Campy and the MIghty. (Later SunTour I do not know.)

You can go to Sheldon Brown's website for a good explanation of JIS and ISO tapers but the brands and models you have may not be on his list. An option you can try is put an ordinary Shimano (JIS) road bottom bracket in. Mount the cranks. Measure the chainline and distance to the BB and distance chainring to chainstay. Now you know how much shorter a JIS spindle should be for those cranks.

Now, there's a lot I haven't said. For example, Shimano BBs are symmetrical. Many Suginos and SunTours are not. Browse this forum as you go along and double check before yo spend money.

And last, if all attempts to find the right spindle fail and you have money in your wallet that wants to fly, document carefully the spindle length and JIS or ISO you need and contact Phil Wood and get the perfect spindle. You'll have a BB that may outlive your grand kids. (And you'll get bike parts that aren't just clean enough to place beside knife and fork, they're clean enough to do surgery with and would look good beside the scalpel.)

Ben
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Old 07-20-20, 02:27 PM
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A standard British BB is 68mm wide which, depending on your definition of a hair.......
Which way is the DS cup threaded?
Is there a "code" on the spindle such as 3-P or 5-A or similar?
Look at (almost) the bottom of the page here to identify for sure.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html
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Old 07-20-20, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by EamonPVD View Post
or perhaps this means the bb is iso and the crank is JIS?
I can never keep straight which taper is larger but that sounds right on. SunTour Superbe being ISO - makes perfect sense. The Sugino r2d2 (sp) (cursed site formatting - I have to jump through hoops to see correct spelling in the first post) could well be a "best of the rest" crankset, made to upgrade bikes with JIS. (That's not to say it is shabby. Sugino makes very good cranksets. I have put many miles on many "lesser" Suginos. Both my Best geared bikes now sports older road 110-74 BCD cranksets (for the narrow Q-factor). They probably came off $400 bikes. I have little trouble imaging Sugino making a crank as good as a 75 or Mighty but JIS.

My advice re: using a Shimano road BB stands. Any bike coop could lend you a BB to try this and if you have to go out and spend the bucks, they're $30. And while probablyu not for this bike, it will serve you or whoever very well on some road/sport bike.

Ben
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Old 07-20-20, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by EamonPVD View Post
Hi! I have a Casati track bike with a bb shell width of 70mm (or a hair under) and a superbe pro bb spindle length being 109mm. I have a sugino crankset rd2d (something like that). Anyway when i try to bolt it on, it bottoms out very quickly against the bb cups. Do these cranks come in different widths? Do i just need a longer spindle? 70mm seems like an odd bb shell width to me but maybe I am just missing something?
Are you using a spindle intended for a 70mm shell?
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Old 07-20-20, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Are you using a spindle intended for a 70mm shell?
Wouldn't that only make a difference to the non-drive side crank since the drive side cup bottoms out on the shell surface? Now I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that it was the drive side crank that was hitting the BB and that the OP hadn't even gotten to the non-drive side. OP, am I right?

Ben
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Old 07-20-20, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Wouldn't that only make a difference to the non-drive side crank since the drive side cup bottoms out on the shell surface? Now I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that it was the drive side crank that was hitting the BB and that the OP hadn't even gotten to the non-drive side. OP, am I right?

Ben
Italian spindles are 3mm wider in the "B" dimension.
This might result in the adjustable cup/lock ring not having enough purchase.

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Old 07-20-20, 08:17 PM
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A 109mm spindle is a standard for Japanese Keirin bikes and typically those are going to be ISO so like your Sugino 75s or Dura-Ace 7600 Chainwheels. Most of those BB's are going to be English threaded. The crank you have is designed for a 103mm JIS spindle at least in a 68mm shell. It is possible that the Shimano UN55 70x107mm would work as that I think is the smallest I have seen for JIS 70mm BBs.

If that Superbe Pro bottom bracket is working in that frame then I would honestly try to find a Superbe Pro crankset or go to a Sugino 75 (which is easier to find) or Shimano 7600 (which might be tougher than 75s but easier than Superbe Pros). With those you have a wider range of great chainrings in 144bcd. If you have a nice bike it is well worth it to put some nice parts on it.

If you want to go full Italian, Campagnolo Pista cranks are an option (if not looking to break the bank) but I have heard they are a bit less stiff but have no real data to back that up other than hearsay. Me personally I would go C-Record all the way and get some of those beyond sexy "Sheriff Star" hubs and engraved cranks but you are talking crazy money at that point.
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Old 07-22-20, 06:35 AM
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I was told buy a grumpy old school bike mechanic essentially , “duh you just need a longer spindle. One that gives the best chainline”

he didnt wanna hear any talk of JIS or ISO. I dunno!
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Old 07-22-20, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Are you using a spindle intended for a 70mm shell?
i had assumed the bb that was included with the frameset had been used in the frame. But maybe it was just thrown in there.
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Old 07-22-20, 10:16 PM
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Oh chainline. So many people worry about it on their fixed gears it is so funny. I have not once worried about it on any bikes I own. I would be more concerned with the proper Spindle taper personally just so I don't screw up either the bb or the cranks.
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