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Campy out of spec, making it work

Old 07-28-20, 12:24 PM
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rosefarts
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Campy out of spec, making it work

Campy Chorus 10 speed 12x30 with an 11 speed 50/34 crank. No other brands mixed in.

1. In the cross little little cross chain, the line is far enough off that it tries to shift into the big ring. The next up is noisy but doesnt force a shift. Per Campy, the UT crank will work up to 68.8mm. I can add up to .8mm of spacers on the drive side cup. Since .5 is all that's readily available, that's probably all I'll move it. Probably won't correct the problem but will reduce it. Due to the construction of the spider on the crank, it would not be possible to shim the rings out.

2. In granny, 34 x 30, there is a rub from the pulley to the cog. Campy has no b-screw. The tension screw it does have, paradoxically increases rub when tightened. Shortening the chain alleviates the problem but is so short that an accidental big/big will lock the chain and do who knows what to the derailleur and chain.

So for proper chain length I need to do something.

A wolf link would work but is dramatic overkill. I only need an eighth of an inch, maybe less. I shoved a thin piece of metal to space out the deraileur from the frame, it works. So I'm thinking I'll kludge one.

So yes, getting a new medium cage rear derailleur and getting a different compact crank that has a little more play in the chainline would be everyone's favorite answer.

Let's pretend that the bike is great most of the time and a couple things will make it better. Am I on the right track?

I find sometimes my mind wanders one direction and it's sometimes helpful to ask others. So what would you do?






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Old 07-28-20, 12:40 PM
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1. In the cross little little cross chain, the line is far enough off that it tries to shift into the big ring. The next up is noisy but doesnt force a shift
...I am reminded of the joke where a guy goes to the doctor, says, "It hurts when I do this." and raises his arms above his head. And the doctor says, "Stop doing that."
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Old 07-28-20, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...I am reminded of the joke where a guy goes to the doctor, says, "It hurts when I do this." and raises his arms above his head. And the doctor says, "Stop doing that."
Totally. Been riding it like that for a few years.

Just trying to get it a little more dialed for fun.
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Old 07-28-20, 01:39 PM
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I've often wondered whether anything larger than my 13-26 would work on a standard Chorus 10. I also have 50/34 UT in the front except an older 10sp version. I ride frequently enough in the 50/26 combo and would wonder whether 50/29 would work. There is so rarely a hill that I encounter that needs to go to the small front ring.

I'm not sure where the spacer goes on your crank. Is that at the frame so the BB cup protrudes a little more on the drive side?
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Old 07-28-20, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by zacster View Post
I've often wondered whether anything larger than my 13-26 would work on a standard Chorus 10. I also have 50/34 UT in the front except an older 10sp version. I ride frequently enough in the 50/26 combo and would wonder whether 50/29 would work. There is so rarely a hill that I encounter that needs to go to the small front ring.

I'm not sure where the spacer goes on your crank. Is that at the frame so the BB cup protrudes a little more on the drive side?
Fwiw, I rode a 13-29 before I found the 12-30 and it worked fine.

Yes, move the drive side cup .5mm out.
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Old 07-28-20, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
Fwiw, I rode a 13-29 before I found the 12-30 and it worked fine.

Yes, move the drive side cup .5mm out.
the Chorus driveside cup is flanged - youíll need a spacer to go between the flange and the BB cup (actually you probably donít if you unscrew the DS cup ~3/4mm, torque down the NDS cup, then torque the DS cup - but thereíll be a gap around the flange)
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Old 07-28-20, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
the Chorus driveside cup is flanged - youíll need a spacer to go between the flange and the BB cup (actually you probably donít if you unscrew the DS cup ~3/4mm, torque down the NDS cup, then torque the DS cup - but thereíll be a gap around the flange)
This is a basic misunderstanding of Campagnolo Ultratorque cups. They are totally independent of each other with no sleeve in between. If you untorque the driveside cup, the non driveside cup will already be fully seated, you will not be able to tighten it further. The driveside cup will go back to its original position when you tighten it back up
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Old 07-28-20, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
This is a basic misunderstanding of Campagnolo Ultratorque cups. They are totally independent of each other with no sleeve in between. If you untorque the driveside cup, the non driveside cup will already be fully seated, you will not be able to tighten it further. The driveside cup will go back to its original position when you tighten it back up
Ah - youíre right - I was thinking about his otherwise 10sp drivetrain and forgot about the 11sp crank
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Old 07-28-20, 04:12 PM
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As someone who has admired Campagnolo's products for 50 years or more, it's slightly upsetting to see a Campagnolo drivetrain referred to as "out of spec" when it's being asked to accommodate a gear range that it wasn't designed for.
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Old 07-28-20, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
Fwiw, I rode a 13-29 before I found the 12-30 and it worked fine.

Yes, move the drive side cup .5mm out.
I would be a little worried about moving the driveside cup out even by only .5 mm. Perhaps an 11 speed chain might work as an alternative. Does your bike have short chainstays? this can exacerbate this sort of problem. I have a similar setup: Chorus 10 speed drivetrain, 12-29 cassette with an 11 speed 50-34 crank. I never expected that my 12-34 combination would work very well. It works, sort of but the large chainring rubs against the chain. However, my bike has fairly long chainstays and adjustable dropouts set as far back as possible. Short chainstays can make a difference for the worse. Compact cranksets have a bigger difference between large and small chainrings than standard 53-39 setups. When I was running a 52-39 crank I could use all cogs in back using both rings
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Old 07-28-20, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
Ah - youíre right - I was thinking about his otherwise 10sp drivetrain and forgot about the 11sp crank
Whether it is 10 speed or 11 speed, Ultra Torque cups are the same. My first Ultra Torque cranks were designed for 10 speed drivetrains. The cups remain the same for both
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Old 07-28-20, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
Whether it is 10 speed or 11 speed, Ultra Torque cups are the same. My first Ultra Torque cranks were designed for 10 speed drivetrains. The cups remain the same for both
I get it - I was thinking square taper, because thatís what my 10sp setup uses
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Old 07-28-20, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
As someone who has admired Campagnolo's products for 50 years or more, it's slightly upsetting to see a Campagnolo drivetrain referred to as "out of spec" when it's being asked to accommodate a gear range that it wasn't designed for.
Pearl clutching over one tooth? Or half a milimeter?
Or is your definition of spec different than mine?
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Old 07-28-20, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
I get it - I was thinking square taper, because thatís what my 10sp setup uses
Very easy to make that assumption, 10 speed Ultratorque was only for one model year
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Old 07-28-20, 06:30 PM
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Don't run the 34 chainring and the #1 cog, it isn't designed to do that and it isn't as mechanically efficient as the 50t ring and the #8 cog. Campy UT cranks are connected with a hirth joint (as you know). No way in the world would I use a spacer that will decrease engagement. Whether Campy says it's ok or not.

It is what it is, no little little and no big big. For the record I run the exact same set up on half a dozen vintage steel bikes.

I get it, you want one tooth changes that the #1 -3 cogs offer. But with a 16 tooth difference between the small and large chainrings you'll need to learn to spin a smaller gear faster (using the 50t ring) or a bigger gear slower (cadence wise).
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Old 07-28-20, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
Very easy to make that assumption, 10 speed Ultratorque was only for one model year
And I managed to find one when I was looking, and a compact one at that. They are very rare as I came to find out.

Originally Posted by nomadmax
Don't run the 34 chainring and the #1 cog, it isn't designed to do that and it isn't as mechanically efficient as the 50t ring and the #8 cog. Campy UT cranks are connected with a hirth joint (as you know). No way in the world would I use a spacer that will decrease engagement. Whether Campy says it's ok or not.

It is what it is, no little little and no big big. For the record I run the exact same set up on half a dozen vintage steel bikes.

I get it, you want one tooth changes that the #1 -3 cogs offer. But with a 16 tooth difference between the small and large chainrings you'll need to learn to spin a smaller gear faster (using the 50t ring) or a bigger gear slower (cadence wise).
I once watched a video on applying spacers so that the wavy washer wasn't needed, and you dial in the spacing in .1mm increments, with even a .05 spacer included. The wavy washer is supposed to take up the slack but is the source of problems with the UT system. I haven't had any problems myself with it.

And if anybody ever needs it, I have the bearing extractor and the cup tool and a long 8mm 3/8" drive allen bit.
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Old 07-28-20, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by zacster View Post

And if anybody ever needs it, I have the bearing extractor and the cup tool and a long 8mm 3/8" drive allen bit.
A bearing puller rented from the auto store works if you're careful. The old bearing can be used along with a piece of PVC and a rubber mallet to put new one back on.
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Old 07-28-20, 07:45 PM
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Have you noticed that nobody has any ideas for the actual problem, of not being able to use granny gear?
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Old 07-28-20, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
Campy Chorus 10 speed 12x30 with an 11 speed 50/34 crank. No other brands mixed in.

1. In the cross little little cross chain, the line is far enough off that it tries to shift into the big ring. The next up is noisy but doesnt force a shift. Per Campy, the UT crank will work up to 68.8mm. I can add up to .8mm of spacers on the drive side cup. Since .5 is all that's readily available, that's probably all I'll move it. Probably won't correct the problem but will reduce it. Due to the construction of the spider on the crank, it would not be possible to shim the rings out.
Running a 10 speed chain with an 11 speed crank spaced for a narrower chain you can expect that, especially with short chain stays. I had chain rub on the last few cogs when I tried to pair an FSA "9 and 10 speed compatible" crank with a C9 chain until I shimmed the big ring out to 9 speed spacing.

Wheels Manufacturing, Origin 8, and LeTour all make 0.5mm shims that provide clearance for a chain made for one cog less - 9 speed chain on 10 speed crank, 10 speed chain on 11 speed crank, etc. Campagnolo briefly did too during the short 9-10 speed transition.

Alternatively you could run 11 speed chains; although one set of shims will cost less and not render your chain stockpile obsolete.

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Old 07-28-20, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
Have you noticed that nobody has any ideas for the actual problem, of not being able to use granny gear?
Some Campagnolo derailleurs have two positions for the lower pivot spring so you can have more adjustment range than the tension screw provides.

Chorus/Record attach the pivot with a bolt you can't lose like the lower gruppo clip.

I'd disassemble it and see if that's the case.

No idea if they ever did the same thing with the upper pivot - I never had to mess with one.

Otherwise don't exceed Campagnolo's derailleur limits.

10 speed official derailleur capacity limits were:

Short - 55mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs but 13-29. 27T wrap. Or 30T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 26T (2010 OEM manual) or 27T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference (which the observant reader will note might get to 13 + 16 = 29 if you don't run out of wrap first, perhaps in situations like 50-39 rings not on Campagnolo's menu)

Medium - 72.5mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs plus triple cranks with all cogs but 13-29. 30T wrap. Or 32T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 29T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference.

Long - 89mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for triple cranks and all cogs. 38 (2010 OEM manual) or 39T wrap. 29T largest cog. 22 minimum to maximum sprocket difference. Obviously with the specified 11 minimum starting cog and a 22 range you'd end up with a 33 large which is beyond 29T.

The 8/9 speed Racing-T derailleur was a medium which I measured at 75mm between jockey wheel axles.

Personally, I'd pair a smaller cassette with a triple crank and NOS 2006 Record Titanium derailleurs. You can have one tooth jumps to the 19 cog, more speed before shifting to your big ring, and a lower gear for mountains. Chorus 10 speed ergo levers will all run a triple using 6 or 7 out of 12 positions.


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Old 07-29-20, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
A bearing puller rented from the auto store works if you're careful. The old bearing can be used along with a piece of PVC and a rubber mallet to put new one back on.
I looked at everything available when I needed to pull the bearing and just decided to get the tool. The auto store units for sale would all have needed a mod to work, and never thought about renting but if the rental needs a mod it then won't work. Putting the bearing back on is the easier part and anything that'll press on the bearing will work, but gently of course. It is probably the most esoteric bike tool I own and unlikely to ever be used again unless someone on BF ever needs it and would pay shipping back and forth. I even thought of donating it to the local bike coop, but coop users aren't usually riding high-end Campy and it would just be lost. I guess at some point in the future all of the UT cranks will develop a click or get rough.

For that matter, look at how few of us are responding! We are of the few Campy users here,
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Old 07-29-20, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
Some Campagnolo derailleurs have two positions for the lower pivot spring so you can have more adjustment range than the tension screw provides.

Chorus/Record attach the pivot with a bolt you can't lose like the lower gruppo clip.

I'd disassemble it and see if that's the case.

No idea if they ever did the same thing with the upper pivot - I never had to mess with one.

Otherwise don't exceed Campagnolo's derailleur limits.

10 speed official derailleur capacity limits were:

Short - 55mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs but 13-29. 27T wrap. Or 30T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 26T (2010 OEM manual) or 27T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference (which the observant reader will note might get to 13 + 16 = 29 if you don't run out of wrap first, perhaps in situations like 50-39 rings not on Campagnolo's menu)

Medium - 72.5mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs plus triple cranks with all cogs but 13-29. 30T wrap. Or 32T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 29T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference.

Long - 89mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for triple cranks and all cogs. 38 (2010 OEM manual) or 39T wrap. 29T largest cog. 22 minimum to maximum sprocket difference. Obviously with the specified 11 minimum starting cog and a 22 range you'd end up with a 33 large which is beyond 29T.

The 8/9 speed Racing-T derailleur was a medium which I measured at 75mm between jockey wheel axles.

Personally, I'd pair a smaller cassette with a triple crank and NOS 2006 Record Titanium derailleurs. You can have one tooth jumps to the 19 cog, more speed before shifting to your big ring, and a lower gear for mountains. Chorus 10 speed ergo levers will all run a triple using 6 or 7 out of 12 positions.
So this is saying that 50/34 with 13-29 just won't work on my setup if I tried, and that Rosefarts 12-30 would be even worse. But reality is more like it kinda/sorta works, with maybe some rub somewhere or a little chain slack in the small/small. Hmmm, as long as it will shift onto the 29 and still work I may consider this yet again. I can say that I never ride the small/small combo, I much prefer to be on the big ring in that range of gears, but I do ride the big/big on my current combo when I hit a small hill that doesn't require going onto the small ring. If I lived somewhere with real hills I'm sure I'd have a different style of riding, but it is what it is here. PBK has the 13/29 Veloce available.
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Old 07-29-20, 08:29 AM
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Zacster, the reality is always a little better than the published range.

The evolution of the bike went this way

Got it (used) with full Chorus 10 speed. Including 53-39 on a square taper BB. 12-25 cassette. I rode that bike up Pikes Peak the second day I had it. It was character building.

Quickly switched to 13-29 and it was pretty good. No real concerns at all. In fact, it might have been plug and play, as in, I just installed the cassette and went for a ride.

I wanted even more and got the Chorus carbon compact cranks that needed new bearings for cheap. It only took a few minutes to put new bearings on. The only problem was I didn't install the cranks 180 apart and didn't notice for a couple rides.

I got the 12-30 cassette almost accidentally. Just had my name on a list to email when it finally came back in stock. I will say it is far lighter than the 13-29 one it replaced. Both are Campy but the 12-30 was a little more expensive.

I got it to work by shortening the chain but I had to be very careful. Nobody cross chains on purpose, I just don't want to do it on accident and ruin anything.

Yesterday was new chain day and I put it together one link longer. Solves the big cross chain concern but re-opens the whole can of worms about granny gear. I'm trying to have it all.

As for the small small problem. It's basically a non concern. However, if Campy says that I can move my cup out up to .8mm, why not? It's really easy to find out, if it's too wide, as in two pieces of the spindle aren't solidly connected, the bearings will bind when the bolt is tight. It's not like it would even be rideable. So it's not an issue of riding with half tooth engagement on the spindle, it's a matter of it working perfectly or the bearings don't move.
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Old 07-29-20, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
Zacster, the reality is always a little better than the published range.

The evolution of the bike went this way

Got it (used) with full Chorus 10 speed. Including 53-39 on a square taper BB. 12-25 cassette. I rode that bike up Pikes Peak the second day I had it. It was character building.

Quickly switched to 13-29 and it was pretty good. No real concerns at all. In fact, it might have been plug and play, as in, I just installed the cassette and went for a ride.

I wanted even more and got the Chorus carbon compact cranks that needed new bearings for cheap. It only took a few minutes to put new bearings on. The only problem was I didn't install the cranks 180 apart and didn't notice for a couple rides.

I got the 12-30 cassette almost accidentally. Just had my name on a list to email when it finally came back in stock. I will say it is far lighter than the 13-29 one it replaced. Both are Campy but the 12-30 was a little more expensive.

I got it to work by shortening the chain but I had to be very careful. Nobody cross chains on purpose, I just don't want to do it on accident and ruin anything.

Yesterday was new chain day and I put it together one link longer. Solves the big cross chain concern but re-opens the whole can of worms about granny gear. I'm trying to have it all.

As for the small small problem. It's basically a non concern. However, if Campy says that I can move my cup out up to .8mm, why not? It's really easy to find out, if it's too wide, as in two pieces of the spindle aren't solidly connected, the bearings will bind when the bolt is tight. It's not like it would even be rideable. So it's not an issue of riding with half tooth engagement on the spindle, it's a matter of it working perfectly or the bearings don't move.
Wow, that's almost exactly what I went through, except I stopped at 13-26. Also bought a compact CF crank also with bad bearings, but I installed mine 180 the first time. How was the 12-30 lighter than the 13-29? I would think they'd be about the same unless you have Chorus or Record. I always buy the Veloce myself as they are far cheaper.
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Old 07-29-20, 05:13 PM
  #25  
rosefarts
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Originally Posted by zacster View Post
How was the 12-30 lighter than the 13-29?.
On a carrier and more holes drilled vs almost solid and individual rings.

I think it's centaur vs veloce too, I'll weigh them when I get a chance.

Last edited by rosefarts; 07-29-20 at 05:18 PM.
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