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new frame. oh ****. Headset woes

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new frame. oh ****. Headset woes

Old 07-30-20, 08:27 AM
  #1  
tz250
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new frame. oh ****. Headset woes

So got a new frame from Italy. I wanted the headset installed (i bought a Record hs from them, 1” threaded), but they did not fit it.

I made my own headset tool, pvc pipe, crown bearing would not go on. Put bicycle fork in freezer, fork crown race in the toaster oven, still no go.

Fork race OD measures 26.5mm, bearing ID is 26.4; thats a lot for interference fit, imho.

NOW the ID of headtube is 29.89mm! The OD of the campy bearing cups are 30.2mm. A look at Park Tool headset standards, looks like head-tube ID is EC29 (or JIS) while fork is 1” Euro or Pro.

I’m not a pro bike mechanic, but “frame prep” of headtube from 29.89 to 30.15 is a *lot.”
The head mechanic was saying he was afraid of chipping chrome on headtube. Frame is at the bike shop now. My gut is saying bring frame + fork and Record headset to a machine shop.

Comments?

NOBODY I could find makes an EC29 headset, and even then they would have to steal a fork race from an EC30 headset for the fork, correct?

(edited for capitalization, elimination of hs for headset, wld for would, and other grammar infractions)
Also, i contacted frame builder by email and asked if 0.3mm wasn’t too big for a bicycle shop to ream out when doing a “frame prep.”

Last edited by tz250; 07-30-20 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 07-30-20, 09:03 AM
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Not all bike shops are going to have the same experience level for doing this. You might ask any others nearby or even call and tell them what your got and what your issue is.

Many of the machine shops that can, might not want to because it's such a small job with high cost if done wrong. And they too will likely not have the specific tools and will have to fabricate something as you attempted. But worth a try if you can't find someone with tools and experience.

As for whether your components are compatible, I've no idea.

Last edited by Iride01; 07-30-20 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 07-30-20, 09:12 AM
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From BF FAQs "Please do your best when it comes to grammar, punctuation and spelling....."
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Old 07-30-20, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
From BF FAQs "Please do your best when it comes to grammar, punctuation and spelling....."
Does make for hard reading when you don't capitalized beginning sentence letter. Or organize thoughts into paragraphs.

I couldn't make sense of much of the technical details easily so I didn't try.
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Old 07-30-20, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Does make for hard reading when you don't capitalized beginning sentence letter. Or organize thoughts into paragraphs.

I couldn't make sense of much of the technical details easily so I didn't try.
Yes, I will try to do better in future posts. I realize that a majority here were not on DARPA.net in the 1980’s. its....It’s a hard habit to break.
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Old 07-30-20, 10:22 AM
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I have looked at ordering framesets from Italy, but never have, how did that work out for you. Good communication with seller, etc?

I couldn't really follow your description, but did follow the interference fit and agree 0.1 mm (or about 4 mils) is big for a press fit.
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Old 07-30-20, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Steelman54 View Post
I have looked at ordering framesets from Italy, but never have, how did that work out for you. Good communication with seller, etc?

I couldn't really follow your description, but did follow the interference fit and agree 0.1 mm (or about 4 mils) is big for a press fit.
At the moment I’m not too happy.

But it was quite easy to order a frame. There was no dealer near my hometown, so they said they would sell direct to me. I used PayPal for payment. It cost $90 USD to ship, arrived by UPS, and I had to pay a $61.00 USD for import tariff through UPS to US Customs. It took about a week to travel from Italy to me.


They have a website. I picked the model I wanted, specified paint color and scheme (it was a copy of one of their pictures on website), and rear spacing at 130mm, two sets of water bottle bosses, rear brake cable guides on toptube, and braze-on front derailleur hanger.

They sent pictures of finished frame before shipping.

Robin
(I hope I made enough paragraphs)
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Old 07-30-20, 11:23 AM
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You might want to post this in the Framebuilders sub-forum. The fork seems like the toughest nut to crack. The head tube might be solved by honing it out. I can’t tell you about how much material removal is accomplished, all I can remember is my dad honing cylinders way back when.

John
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Old 07-30-20, 11:30 AM
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Robin- The sizing differences are not insurmountable. Agree with others that it is unlikely you will find a machine shop that will work on such small tolerances for a reasonable price. However, you can do this yourself.

I would suggest using 80 grade sandpaper on the inside of the crown race to slightly enlarge the ID. It's only a tenth of a mm, just take your time and try to take an even amount off the entire inside face. If you can finish it off with 220 grit, even better. Easier to do this than to try to reduce the size of the fork crown, although I've also seen that done successfully by hand with a good file.

Would also suggest using the same technique to reduce the OD of the headset ups- either sandpaper or a file. Protect the cup with masking tape to keep it from getting scratched if things slip while working on it. Again, it's only .2mm, not a huge amount.

IMHO, even a slightly off center removal of such a small amount would not likely impact headset performance.
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Old 07-30-20, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr View Post
Robin- The sizing differences are not insurmountable. Agree with others that it is unlikely you will find a machine shop that will work on such small tolerances for a reasonable price. However, you can do this yourself.

I would suggest using 80 grade sandpaper on the inside of the crown race to slightly enlarge the ID. It's only a tenth of a mm, just take your time and try to take an even amount off the entire inside face. If you can finish it off with 220 grit, even better. Easier to do this than to try to reduce the size of the fork crown, although I've also seen that done successfully by hand with a good file.

Would also suggest using the same technique to reduce the OD of the headset ups- either sandpaper or a file. Protect the cup with masking tape to keep it from getting scratched if things slip while working on it. Again, it's only .2mm, not a huge amount.

IMHO, even a slightly off center removal of such a small amount would not likely impact headset performance.
Ah! Yes, I did have a cylinder hone for motorcycles, but a small engine hone may work. Frame is still at the bike shop. They are a pro shop, so maybe I’m anxious for no reason. Thanks!
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Old 07-30-20, 12:29 PM
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I'd take this to the framebuilders forum.

Did the frame look like it had been reamed before shipping? I've only ever built one frame in a class, but to my memory the tubing ID is undersize so that it doesn't ovalize with heat to the point of any part being oversized to spec, and then it's expected to be reamed to spec. If there's no evidence it was machined at all, it may be intended to be reamed to fit an EC30 HS.

Frame builder should get back to you or they shouldn't be doing business.
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Old 07-30-20, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
I'd take this to the framebuilders forum.

Did the frame look like it had been reamed before shipping? I've only ever built one frame in a class, but to my memory the tubing ID is undersize so that it doesn't ovalize with heat to the point of any part being oversized to spec, and then it's expected to be reamed to spec. If there's no evidence it was machined at all, it may be intended to be reamed to fit an EC30 HS.

Frame builder should get back to you or they shouldn't be doing business.
The fork crown seat definitely looked machined, just not enough. The inside of the headtube looked “clean” but I do not have it in front of me to look. As I said I’m not a pro mechanic, but 0.3mm seems like a lot to remove for a bike shop frame prep. You may be correct about heat distortion.

It is a Ciocc so they should absolutely know what they are doing. They are pretty good about replying to emails. I will certainly update when the do.
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Old 07-30-20, 12:51 PM
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I'm a pro mechanic but I don't frame prep handbuilt frames often, but 0.3mm sounds likely given how much tubes can distort from heat. I strongly suspect its intended to be reamed for an EC30 HS.
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Old 07-30-20, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tz250 View Post
The fork crown seat definitely looked machined, just not enough. The inside of the headtube looked “clean” but I do not have it in front of me to look. As I said I’m not a pro mechanic, but 0.3mm seems like a lot to remove for a bike shop frame prep. You may be correct about heat distortion.

It is a Ciocc so they should absolutely know what they are doing. They are pretty good about replying to emails. I will certainly update when the do.
Robin
Since they are good at answering emails, message them and determine if the frame was prepped or not.

Ciocc is one of those Italian brands that to my recollection could be more mass produced (depending on the model). Same can be said with “Columbus” tubing or “cinelli” bottom brackets.

I’m not sure what an EC90 fork is - is this for a particular brand of fork or particular specification of headset.

I thought your description in the 1st post was pretty understandable. Photos might help here.

If your LBS possesses a full Campy toolset with headtube reamer and facer then with cutting oil and sharp cutters they should make pressing in the cups easy. Same with fitting the fork crown race. I’m not sure how he fork is prepped for the correct fork crown but I imagine that again the pro level bike shop with a full campy tool set (or park tools, or Hozan or whatever) - they should be able to tap on your fork race onto the milled steer tube with minimum fuss.
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Old 07-30-20, 07:33 PM
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Agree.
However, if you intend to use a cylinder hone on the crown race (good idea, BTW), better one for a TZ125 twin. IIRC, a TZ250 bore is about twice as wide as your crown race.
My Yamaha twin days are long past but have many fond memories of those two stroke wonders...
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Old 07-30-20, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tz250 View Post
Ah! Yes, I did have a cylinder hone for motorcycles, but a small engine hone may work. Frame is still at the bike shop. They are a pro shop, so maybe I’m anxious for no reason. Thanks!
Brake wheel cylinder hone is what you need, ball ones come in many sizes or spring loaded ones have little block stones.

I encountered this same problem with another BF member recently, a disturbing trend?

Hope not.
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Old 07-31-20, 05:57 AM
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Agree with using a brake cylinder hone. Concentricity is key to good performance here. I don't think the risk is worth the effort with either sand paper or filing.
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Old 07-31-20, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tz250 View Post
So got a new frame from Italy. I wanted the headset installed (i bought a Record hs from them, 1” threaded), but they did not fit it.

I made my own headset tool, pvc pipe, crown bearing would not go on. Put bicycle fork in freezer, fork crown race in the toaster oven, still no go.

Fork race OD measures 26.5mm, bearing ID is 26.4; thats a lot for interference fit, imho.

NOW the ID of headtube is 29.89mm! The OD of the campy bearing cups are 30.2mm. A look at Park Tool headset standards, looks like head-tube ID is EC29 (or JIS) while fork is 1” Euro or Pro.

I’m not a pro bike mechanic, but “frame prep” of headtube from 29.89 to 30.15 is a *lot.”
The head mechanic was saying he was afraid of chipping chrome on headtube. Frame is at the bike shop now. My gut is saying bring frame + fork and Record headset to a machine shop.

Comments?

NOBODY I could find makes an EC29 headset, and even then they would have to steal a fork race from an EC30 headset for the fork, correct?

(edited for capitalization, elimination of hs for headset, wld for would, and other grammar infractions)
Also, i contacted frame builder by email and asked if 0.3mm wasn’t too big for a bicycle shop to ream out when doing a “frame prep.”
Honestly, return it. PayPal has good protection and the frame did not come as expected. And delete this thread after you make the claim.
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Old 07-31-20, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
Agree with using a brake cylinder hone. Concentricity is key to good performance here. I don't think the risk is worth the effort with either sand paper or filing.
(Shrugs shoulders)
Relatively speaking, a headset is not a high performance item and in my experience does not require concentricity on the order of tenths of a mm.
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Old 07-31-20, 08:02 AM
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26.5mm is the correct diameter for the fork crown seat. Any smaller and you need to use retaining compound on the crown race to keep it in place. A PVC pipe won't work, you need a steel pipe, preferable a proper crown race setting tool, and proper support for the fork. Usually one good hit with a dead-blow hammer will install it.

Putting 30.2mm cups in a 29.9mm headtube is a little tight but easily doable with the right tool. You need a decent cup press and a little grease and they'll go right in. Threaded rods and washers typically won't work when things get to opposite ends of the tolerances. But I'd ream and face the headtube before installing the headset.

It's typical that the headtube on a steel frame needs to be faced and reamed prior to installing the headset. The only time I would trust that the headtube is right is if the builder installed the headset. Stress come out during shipping (temperature changes), packaging, handling, etc can all cause the headtube to warp. It's my habit to face and ream the headtube, then measure it to ensure it's right. Any shop that regularly builds up bike from frames will have a facing and reaming tool with the 30.1mm reamer. It's a 10 minute job but it makes a huge difference in quality of the build. Chipping the chrome is a problem. Likely the only thing you can do is carefully ream both top and bottom and get them as concentric as possible.

Don't take it to a machine shop, they'll just mess it up and damage the frame's finish. Find a shop that regularly builds up bikes from frames and components or a small frame builder. They'll know what to do.
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Old 07-31-20, 08:15 AM
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Interesting the Ciocc sold you a frame direct from Italy, would have expected they would send you to a distributor in US. But, there is a pandemic on and they need to make Euro's, so all bets off.

Honestly, I think RGMN has summed it up quite nicely.

I learned many years ago, the frame builder doesn't necessarily prep the frame. Got a frame once with remnant braze alloy on BB threads, couldn't clear it using old BB cups, fortunately had a LBS shop with the fancy Campagnolo tool set, took them under 15 mins to do it.

Good luck, should be nice build at the end of all this.
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Old 07-31-20, 09:16 AM
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RGMN is correct. The few custom frames we would get were prepped for building the frame, not for the headset. Paint, chrome, burrs or braze would sometime be in the tube so we would ream and face all the customs. Headset and bottom bracket (if the cups squared against the face of the BB that is), hone the seat tube (no sense in replacing that seatpost that the customer would demand not be scratched). Chase all the threads for paint and burrs.
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Old 07-31-20, 09:37 AM
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.
...file this under the FWIW category, but we live now in an age when you can buy adjustable reamers in various diameter ranges that are suitable for infrequent use very cheaply....like in the 20 and 30 dollar range. They are listed on Amazon, all seem to be made in China, and are not all that bad for home use (most of us won't use them very much.) You do have to be very careful in adjusting them, and measuring the diameter you've set them to prior to using them on your final product (the custom frame). The adjusting takes much longer than the reaming. And once reamed, obviously, you can't resize whatever it is smaller again.

They are especially good for people doing older frame renovations, where say a seat tube post lug has been deformed out of round and smaller than the inner diameter of the seat tube...squeezed smaller by careless fitting of new seatpost to a diameter smaller than the originally fitted post by some well intentioned amateur mechanic. Anyway, IME they work much better for bicycle frame use than the flex hones designed and sold mostly for knocking the glaze and small wear differences in IC engine cylinder bores. The cutters are longer on them, so it's easier to control your results over the length of the bore.

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Old 07-31-20, 09:47 AM
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^^^ let me add here that I'm entirely uncertain if anything needs to be reamed or made larger from the OP's description of this particular frame. It sounds to me like it ought to go together with the proper tools and technique.
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Old 07-31-20, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.

...file this under the FWIW category, but we live now in an age when you can buy adjustable reamers in various diameter ranges that are suitable for infrequent use very cheaply....like in the 20 and 30 dollar range. They are listed on Amazon, all seem to be made in China, and are not all that bad for home use (most of us won't use them very much.) You do have to be very careful in adjusting them, and measuring the diameter you've set them to prior to using them on your final product (the custom frame). The adjusting takes much longer than the reaming. And once reamed, obviously, you can't resize whatever it is smaller again.
Chadwick & Trefethen Reamers 00280, 00290, and 00300 are what I have. They are pretty standard for most frame builders/custom bike assemblers. I wouldn't use one of these on a headtube, however. A proper headtube facing and reaming tool works MUCH better.

Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
^^^ let me add here that I'm entirely uncertain if anything needs to be reamed or made larger from the OP's description of this particular frame. It sounds to me like it ought to go together with the proper tools and technique.
Originally Posted by canopus View Post
RGMN is correct. The few custom frames we would get were prepped for building the frame, not for the headset. Paint, chrome, burrs or braze would sometime be in the tube so we would ream and face all the customs. Headset and bottom bracket (if the cups squared against the face of the BB that is), hone the seat tube (no sense in replacing that seatpost that the customer would demand not be scratched). Chase all the threads for paint and burrs.
I agree, from what I've seen you could build this frame with few issues as it currently is, but I would do all that canopus lists on the frame. It just makes for a better quality build. I know I'm lucky that I have access to a complete set of Park frame tools (a buddy and I bought a shop full of tools from a bike shop that was going out of business) but any well equipped bike shop should have them. And one that regularly builds custom bikes will have sharp, nick-free cutters to go with them because they know how much money it saves the shop.
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