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"25% less torque (compared to dry) on fasteners lubricated with anything"

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"25% less torque (compared to dry) on fasteners lubricated with anything"

Old 08-03-20, 02:35 PM
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RowdyTI
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"25% less torque (compared to dry) on fasteners lubricated with anything"

After my experiment, I looked at bolt manufacturer data and found they generally recommend roughly 25% less torque (compared to dry) on fasteners lubricated with anything (oil, grease, etc.) and roughly 40% less torque on fasteners coated in anti-seize compound.
Full article: https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/ant...-bolts.604971/

I've read in multiple reviews of torque wrenches where the person goes to recommended torque and strips the bolt. They assume the wrench is faulty, but it could be thread lubrication skewed the torque reading.

Anti-seize is apparently even more lubricating than basic grease.
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Old 08-03-20, 03:03 PM
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Data? There are many kinds of anti-seize, some contain copper, some nickel, some a combination, others MoS2 and others have PTFE or similar. I do not think they all act the same, best not to generalize.
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Old 08-03-20, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Data? There are many kinds of anti-seize, some contain copper, some nickel, some a combination, others MoS2 and others have PTFE or similar. I do not think they all act the same, best not to generalize.
Instead, upliftingly, I took Ajax’s advice, which is to reduce the recommended assembly torque by 30 per cent for fasteners in that more heavily lubricated state. I’d expect one of the world’s leading bolt manufacturers to know their **** and get it right in their Fastener Handbook for Bolt products, which you can download independently and confirm.
My understanding is any anti-seize at the time of application is more lubricating than grease because the solids are very finely ground.

Here's the link: https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/ulti...ickle-graphite
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Old 08-03-20, 04:13 PM
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I've read, that in some critical places, tightening torque is specified in degrees of rotation
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Old 08-03-20, 04:19 PM
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Does the opposite apply when tightening a bolt with thread-lock?
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Old 08-03-20, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
I've read, that in some critical places, tightening torque is specified in degrees of rotation
In some critical uses, the amount of stretch of the bolt is measured directly, since the stretch/preload is really what measuring the torque is indirectly inferring.
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Old 08-03-20, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RowdyTI View Post
Full article: https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/ant...-bolts.604971/

I've read in multiple reviews of torque wrenches where the person goes to recommended torque and strips the bolt. They assume the wrench is faulty, but it could be thread lubrication skewed the torque reading.

Anti-seize is apparently even more lubricating than basic grease.
I'd hazard the issue is really that the thread/bolt being referenced, didn't come with an indicator of whether the torque rating was based on wet vs. dry.
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Old 08-03-20, 05:27 PM
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I guess this is about those pesky thru axles again. JMO, but you are obsessing way too much about this.
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Old 08-03-20, 06:56 PM
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We used to have a joke about bolt torque back in the day when I was building radio, microwave, and, radar towers out in the middle of nowhere. It went something like this: What's the difference between spot torque and star torque? One is when you tighten something so hard you see stars! Ha ha. No, really. You have to understand the yield strength of materials before you know how to torque fasteners. I rarely if ever get out a torque wrench. Most experienced mechanics understand how much force it takes to snap a fastener in two. And, they tighten things up and stop before they reach that point. It's actually easier the bigger the fastener.
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Old 08-03-20, 11:09 PM
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apples oranges Big difference between torque in cars, jeeps etc and on bicycles....... where most torque is measured in 4 to 8 newton meters 35 or so for casseette lock ring I don't thing dropping 5 nm to 3.75 (even if you could do .25) is a good idea for keeping things like brake cables and handle bars from slipping
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Old 08-03-20, 11:34 PM
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This is "common" knowledge. Be careful.

While many things have torque ratings well below yield or some other failure limit, some don't and that extra 30% becomes very important.

Torque ratings usually assume some regular steel fastener into some regular steel threaded thing.

Side note, galling stainless steel stinks. Use anti-seize on stainless when you can (and reduce torque by 25% unless otherwise specified).
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Old 08-04-20, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RowdyTI View Post
Full article: https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/ant...-bolts.604971/

I've read in multiple reviews of torque wrenches where the person goes to recommended torque and strips the bolt. They assume the wrench is faulty, but it could be thread lubrication skewed the torque reading.

Anti-seize is apparently even more lubricating than basic grease.
To my knowledge, any torque spec assumes light lubrication unless otherwise stated. That is unless the bike industry has different and unique standards. The assumption may be you install as delivered, out of box, lubed or not. Its all highly opaque and the source of endless debate, compounded by cheap or excessively fragile parts that break for no reason and confuse users that did torque to recommended spec.

NOTE the link you provide talks about anti seize, not Any lubricant. Anti seize is vastly different than lubing a fastener with oil.

Imo, a torque tool stops you torquing more than the set spec, but it doesnt entirely replace common sense and "hand feel".

Last edited by Racing Dan; 08-04-20 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 08-04-20, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
I've read, that in some critical places, tightening torque is specified in degrees of rotation
This is true. You torque to a set value, then turn the fastener an additional number of degrees. This ensures adequate clamping even if the bolt is binding a bit in the thread.
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Old 08-04-20, 07:07 AM
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I use a torque wrench on threaded bottom brackets and cassette lock rings - the big stuff - and every thing else is done by feel. It would be stupid to post a torque value, assuming no lubrication. Zipp stem bolts, for example, are lubed at the factory. I put antisieze on all threads. I don't reduce the torque value for it. Another example is SRAM XDR cassettes. There's antisieze on the threads from the factory and a factory torque spec that does not get reduced.

I've been wrenching on carbon fiber parts for 25 years now and never had a torque related problem.
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Old 08-04-20, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
I've read, that in some critical places, tightening torque is specified in degrees of rotation
I measure in Ugga Duggas.
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Old 08-04-20, 03:30 PM
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NOTE the link you provide talks about anti seize, not Any lubricant. Anti seize is vastly different than lubing a fastener with oil.
How is anti-seize vastly different than lubing a fastener with oil? Permatex calls their anti-seize a lubricant. It's just an oil base with finely ground soft metal particles. You say "vastly different" so what exactly do you mean?

This page lists torque coefficients for their anti-seize products: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1995733.pdf

"PLEASE NOTE: There are two “coefficients” used to express the relationship between torque and tension: torque coefficient (also called “nut factor”) is the most commonly used. A different concept is the “friction coefficient,” which has a value of 2/3 (or 67%) of the torque coefficient."

0.13 torque coefficient for nickel-graphite anti-seize and 0.18 torque coefficient for aluminum-graphite anti-seize.

Last edited by RowdyTI; 08-04-20 at 03:34 PM.
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