Harold74

Note: I'd planned to post some photos and a video link here but, apparently, I can't until I've made at least ten posts in the forum. Maybe I can get to ten in the course of this thread and then post the pics.

I cleaned up some old, caged, headset bearings and they came out pretty nice except for some surface rust. I've had some luck removing rust by soaking thing in vinegar in the past and, thinking it a fairly harmless method, attempted to do the same on my bearings. The bearings were in for about four hours and came out looking rather dull as shown in the photos below. They're still smooth but they're greyish and non-shiny. I'm able to spin the bearings between my fingers about as well as I was able to before the foolish vinegar treatment. That said, I find that tough to gauge with the small, caged bearings.

What would others do in this situation? Use the caged bearings as is with lots of grease as usual? Scrap the bearings and the cage and install some new loose bearings? I'd not wanted to go the loose bearing route as I'm pretty new to bike repair and my dexterity isn't all that great. If that's the right answer, however, I'll give it a go. They bearings are cheap and I already have some.

@5:47 of this Park Tool (How to Remove and Install Bottom Brackets - Cup & Cone) video says something to the tune of "The bearings should be smooth and shiny. If they're not, toss the bearings, cups, and cones": Obviously, in my situation, the non-shininess doesn't say anything about the cups and cones. Also, I expect that the objection to non-shininess is probably that it's indicative of mechanical wear which this is not. Still, my bearings definitely 'aint shiny no more.

tyrion

Put some extra virgin olive oil on them and see if they get shiny.

Mad Honk 

So when your done with the salad dressing makings, do this. Get a pair of needle nosed pliers and pop out each bearing in the cage, clean the cage with a small brush, (think tooth brush) to clean out the spaces in the cage, then pop the new bearings into the cage. Result is a re-conditioned bearing set. Then grease and re-install. Smiles, MH

Harold74

Shoulda' gone with balsamic.

Harold74

Thanks, that's certainly a possibility. A couple of things have been holding me back on that so far:

1) Do we have no concern for the cage no longer being smooth and shiny even if the bearing are? I suppose that, when it's installed, there isn't all that much contact between the cage and the bearings.

2) I've watched RJ the bike person do the bearing swap and there was bending of the cage flanges involved. That got me concerned that I might break or deform something that I couldn't put right. That said, I suppose that;

a) If my nuclear option is loose bearings then I've little to lose and;

b) Now that i understand how to orient the cages, I see that any flange bend between frozen bearings and bearings falling out should perform about equally well.

I've been working on bikes all summer but had never attempted it prior. Over the course of the season, I've come to realize that it's much more of a "try it and see" game thank I'd initially supposed. I seem to have uniquely poor cleaning instincts however. Every time I turn around I find myself ruining anodizing, discoloring stainless, and what have you. And I did start out with a considerable amount of research.

Mad Honk 

If you are concerned with the cage surface go ahead and use something like a Dremel with a wire brush bit to clean the surface rust off the cage surface. Remember when you re-grease the bearings the cage will be covered with grease preventing further rusting. Smiles, MH

Harold74

There really is no rust on the cage at this point as the vinegar was successful in that regard. My concern is that the cage is now dull and non-shiny and, presumably, less of a low friction surface? With regard to the grease, one could surely make the same argument for the ball bearings. If they're coated in grease, who cares if they're not as low friction as they were when they were shiny. And I guess that's the crux of my question: do we care?

HillRider

Even if a bit dull, the cage will continue to work fine. Just be careful popping out and replacing the balls so you don't distort the cage. BTW, the balls and cage were not stainless steel.

Harold74

Really? What is the surface treatment then, if not stainless?

Andrew R Stewart 

Stainless steel is almost always a base material, not a surface treatment. Chrome is the most common surface treatment for loose balls. Chrome will allow water to gat at the base steel. thus rust.

If the bearing is well lubed and the retainered ball ring is properly inserted then the retainer will only superficially contact the balls or cup/cone. But if even that's a concern then just use a full compliment of loose balls and ditch the retainer.

The very first thing I wondered about was why reuse the old balls if there's any reasons to question them. New loose balls are very low cost compared to doubt and regret. Andy

davidad

The balls should be a Chrome steel alloy, ergo the bright finish on a new or reusable ball.
shimano uses stainless balls on some of their hubs. Their cheaper hubs use grade 100 balls. I use grade 25C and have had good luck with them.

dedhed

The cages have no bearing (pun intended) on the friction beyond the little they touch the balls. They have no contact with the cup or cone. It's a headset, when moving it turns what? 1/8 turn max?
I'd spend the couple bucks for new bearings and go loose. Not that big of deal, put a bunch of grease in and they stray in place just fine. Or if loathe to do, that pop the new bearings in the old cages.

Bill Kapaun

Get a 10 pak of these- Scroll to the bottom-
https://www.huskybicycles.com/headset-bearings.html

Harold74

Thanks for that Andy. It's very useful for me to know going forward and who knows how long I'd have clung to my stainless steel misconception.

Really nothing more than a general desire to be minimally invasive. And that's probably just a lack of confidence because I'm pretty new at this.

Harold74

That is true and the path that I'm likely going to choose here is probably to just put the tarnished, caged bearings back where they came from and see how it goes. I've got some new ones on order for good measure and, if the tarnished bearings cause any discernible problems, I'll do the loose bearing thing until they replacements show up. And who knows, if I like the loose bearings, maybe I'll just keep the new cages in reserve for future projects.

To the extent that my chosen path may have consequences that I care about, I feel that they would be limited to a slight possibility that:

1) The tarnished bearings will rust faster than they otherwise would have and then;

2) The tarnished bearing might start to pit the cups and cones which would be more difficult for me to replace.

That said, the balls are still pretty shiny and the bike will only be ridden in fair weather.

Part of my aversion to using loose bearings is this mental image that I have of the fork side bearings just rolling out from over the crown race while my wife is trying to take a fast corner on her new C&V. Although, looking at the geometry of it and considering a bit of pre-tension, I'm sure that's pretty close to impossible.

rosefarts

Bearings are super cheap. It would have been a great idea to replace them even without messing about with mild acid

Acetic acid is good for dying easter eggs and killing c-diff. It's not a degreaser.

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Harold74

Thanks for your input. It's not a degreaser but:

1) I used a degeaser first which didn't hand'e the rust.

2) I'd used diluted vinegar successfully on my last project based on a forum recommendation. That was stainless steel though. At least I think it was.

How to identify and clean/polish various surfaces has turned out to be the hardest part of bicycle refurbishment for me. And the internet is a mixed blessing. It's awesome that it's so easy to find quality recommendations. However, those quality recommendations are sometimes lacking context or mixed in with some lower quality recommendations.

rosefarts

I do a bit of refurbs myself.

I don't consider it sacrilege to outright replace wear items. Especially since I probably spend more on beer or coffee while thinking about my solutions.

Asking on the net is certainly a mixed bag. I've learned so much. I've shaken my head in disgust. And I've mourned for my fellow man and his lack of reading comprehension. Still, the pros do often outweigh the cons.

Harold74

Thanks for the recommendation on the replacement headset source Bill, it's a great help. I read someplace that loose bearings was a good option because compatible, vintage bike, caged bearing were hard to come by. And I just took for granted that was accurate. Perhaps it's more of an issue with older or more exotic bikes. I'm working on a Miyata 210 that I'm guessing is a 1986 model.

Harold74

I agree, I'm perfectly happy to swap out consumables. Part of my concern has been:

1) Fear that I might damage something that can't be replaced at a reasonable cost. This is less of an issue than I'd imagined but not quite a non-issue. A Nishiki Olympic that I'm working on has a nifty, supper old school QR mechanism on the brakes. In the process of cleaning one, I sheared the barrel adjuster right off in the hole trying to get it to turn. The only way to get another one is to get it from Ebay for 3X what I paid for the bike. I can jury rig it so the brake works without the QR but it's still disappointing.

2) Being in Canada, in the age of covid, even a $5 part from Ebay will cost me $40 shipping and two or three months of wait time. Excruciating. Damn Canada...

rosefarts

Loose bearings are available in almost any hardware and auto parts store. I'd imagine that Canada is the same.

Most shops have a decent selection of caged and cartridge bearings. Not for display but if you ask, they have them.

I'm sure if you're in the major cities, it's fine. Grab mask and head to the shop. Middle of nowhere, I dunno.

I order from the slow boat from China all the time. It works but is free. My biggest wait so far is a plastic pump peg from the UK. I think it's been 6 weeks. I don't know if I'll ever see it.

banjaboy

Cant be too expensive, why take a chance. ?Price new and see if its worth a swap out.

HillRider

There is no surface treatment for the steel balls used in bike bearings. They are generally a chrome steel alloy that is susceptible to rust. They are through hardened, not plated, and polished to a mirror shine. The viniger you cleaned them with etched the surface.

There are stainless steel bearing balls but they are an industrial bearing specialty, not used in bikes.

dedhed

Properly assembled that just cannot happen.

JohnDThompson 

+1 this. The retainer isn't a bearing surface and doesn't need to be shiny-smooth. Some manufacturers, e.g. Nervar, even used plastic ball retainers.